NEWS-girl killed by mechanic in FL.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Your point being?

Just the perfect double standard the world has with the US. As dictators are killing people by the millions for nothing more than speaking out against their government - people in the so called "superior and civilized" countries are worried that states in the US have excecuted about 660 criminals through a court of law since 1976 for murder.

If you are referring to what I said to SGH - it's that a lot of people were jumped on for suggesting torture as a fitting thing for Carlie's murderer when they themselves have said the same things in the past. The only difference - the crime was different. Although - I wouldn't be surprised if it came out that Carlie was sexually assaulted. They still have not released any of the details of her death.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Millane
...we say rape is wrong based upon emotions therefore i dont see how you can judge a rapist without using emotion since you already have by saying that rape is wrong, back to philosophy, theres a dialogue in the Gorgias between Socrates and Callicles where Callicles talks about origins of morals and laws, saying why convention is wrong the majority of our laws are taken from convention and i agree with Callicles that convention is based upon emotions... sorry, it makes sense in my head hahahaha

Do you mean in the sense that we use our empathy for the victim to assess the seriousness of the crime? To that extent, is not all crime defined emotionally? Is that where you're going with the Socratic dialogue stuff?

If it is, I'd venture to suggest that Callicles is confusing emotion and subjectivity.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Just the perfect double standard the world has with the US. As dictators are killing people by the millions for nothing more than speaking out against their government - people in the so called "superior and civilized" countries are worried that states in the US have excecuted about 660 criminals through a court of law since 1976 for murder.

No, no, I was trying to stay on topic. (Alhough it's nice of you to say that European countries are superior and civilised, I don't think it's true.) I meant, what was your point in saying:

I find it funny how many people on this board are outraged by the death penalty and people suggesting torture for carlie's killer - yet some of these same people have spoken about torture for pedophilias and sexual predators.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
No, no, I was trying to stay on topic. (Alhough it's nice of you to say that European countries are superior and civilised, I don't think it's true.) I meant, what was your point in saying:

I'm sure I don't have to explain even to you that I don't believe Europe is superior or more civilized than the US. I think much of europe likes to believe that little fantasy though.

As for what you were referring to - I edited that in I guess while you were responding.

[Millane]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
BTW - I mentioned this to SGH tonight - I find it funny how many people on this board are outraged by the death penalty and people suggesting torture for carlie's killer - yet some of these same people have spoken about torture for pedophilias and sexual predators.

hey im a hypocrite to some degree, if someone killed my sister or brothers (i dont have children yet) i would want to beat the **** out of him and make him feel pain, yet i still know this is wrong and it is just a heat of the moment thing, i merely pointed it out in the case that some people do not think that torturing is wrong...

Wow - most controversial? I think you made my point about the erroneous and ignorant comments about the world's view of the US. Too many people in this world seem to turn a blind eye to anything that isn't going on in the Un and just gives other countries a free ride. Most controversial? How is that?

my apologies it might have been more plausable to say that the world views the US as the most controversial country, my thoughts arent coming out too clearly tonight...

yes - and many people like to throw that word around everytime I say anything in defense against erroneous and deragatory comments made toward the US.

is it a wrong word for me to use, isnt anti american sentiment what you are annoyed at

That is their opinion to have objections - but it is the will of the people who is deciding and there are MANY checks and balances in the process. Unlike in Iran, China, north Korea, etc. The many places that people outside the US try to lump us in with. ]

ok well let them have there opinion because it sounds like you wont let people say that killing is bad because they dont know about some customs that you obviously find interesting... not everyone cares about US laws

Too bad the rest of the world had no care WHATSOEVER of the millions of people who were dying at the hands of Hussein (even AFTER Gulf War I). If people outside the US cared about the Iraqis being killed, or the North Koreans or the many other people throughout the world who are killed by brutal dictators - then they can give me a speech about the death penalty outside NJ. But hey - most of the demonstrations around the world amazingly weren't directed at Hussein - they were directed at Bush and the US. So much for THEIR care of morality and justice. I think there is a very big double standard when the world looks at morality and justice between the US and the rest of the world.

well nice looking paragraph but ultimately irrelevant, i was addressing your morals as an individual not the choices of countries....

Just the perfect double standard the world has with the US. As dictators are killing people by the millions for nothing more than speaking out against their government - people in the so called "superior and civilized" countries are worried that states in the US have excecuted about 660 criminals through a court of law since 1976 for murder.

personally i think your not doing the death sentence argument any good with that, go hassel him because i only killed 10 he killed 200

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
is it a wrong word for me to use, isnt anti american sentiment what you are annoyed at

No - when I see anti-Americanism - I will tell you. An example of Anti-Americanism is demonstrators in the streets comparing us to Nazi Germany. What i am upset about is the fact that people outside the US say how things work here - when they obviously have no clue.

ok well let them have there opinion because it sounds like you wont let people say that killing is bad because they dont know about some customs that you obviously find interesting... not everyone cares about US laws

Well - then I suppose they should worry about their own countries then. we live in a democracy. The laws of this country are determined by the people opf THIS country - namely the United States of America - not of the EU, not of Australia. We are a not a dictarorship that is just putting people to death for no reason or without a court of law.

well nice looking paragraph but ultimately irrelevant, i was addressing your morals as an individual not the choices of countries....

Why - that paragraph dealt with individuals. How many people in Australia have demonstrated against North Korea or Hussein?

personally i think your not doing the death sentence argument any good with that, go hassel him because i only killed 10 he killed 200

I'm just pointing out the hypoicracy of these so-called international "peace" activists and anti-execution demonstrators from outside the US. If executing people was so terrible and they're so against it - why are they only demonstrating against the US?

[Millane]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No - when I see anti-Americanism - I will tell you. An example of Anti-Americanism is demonstrators in the streets comparing us to Nazi Germany. What i am upset about is the fact that people outside the US say how things work here - when they obviously have no clue.

ok fair enough...

Well - then I suppose they should worry about their own countries then. we live in a democracy. The laws of this country are determined by the people opf THIS country - namely the United States of America - not of the EU, not of Australia. We are a not a dictarorship that is just putting people to death for no reason or without a court of law.

people are allowed to have an opinion, it wouldnt matter if 100% of america agreed on the death penalty people can still say killing is wrong regardless of whether the people of America voted on it, if Australia decided to go backwards and start allowing murder and pedophelia, would you keep your opinions to yourself because the people of australia voted on it...

Why - that paragraph dealt with individuals. How many people in Australia have demonstrated against North Korea or Hussein?

yes but i was talking about YOU not having an opinion about this issue because it didnt happen to occur in NJ...\

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Do you mean in the sense that we use our empathy for the victim to assess the seriousness of the crime? To that extent, is not all crime defined emotionally? Is that where you're going with the Socratic dialogue stuff?

im merely saying that we say rape is bad because of our emotions, and that we couldnt judge a rapist without using emotion because we already have by using a law based on emotion... not sure if that is helping out at all...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Do you mean in the sense that we use our empathy for the victim to assess the seriousness of the crime? To that extent, is not all crime defined emotionally? Is that where you're going with the Socratic dialogue stuff?

If it is, I'd venture to suggest that Callicles is confusing emotion and subjectivity.

I think Millane is right in a sense that we do judge all crimes with emotion. I would say further, that we not only judge them on emotion, but we punish according to that emotion as well.

For example, read the next two crimes and tell me how you felt when reading them....
crime #1. A man propositions a prostitute.
crime #2. A man kidnaps, rapes and tortures a 6 year old boy for days, cuts his throat and dumps his naked body into a ditch.

Either post now, without reading further... or scroll down to see what I think you feel right now. You can always come back and read the rest after you posted to see if I was right.















We tend to be rather indifferent to the man who was arrested for soliciting the prostitute. However, I venture to say that you felt vile disgust for the man who killed the boy. Am I right? If this is the case, then all crime, as well as their punishments, are judged according to our emotions. Not all crimes are equal, as well, not all crimes can be punished the same.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
We tend to be rather indifferent to the man who was arrested for soliciting the prostitute. However, I venture to say that you felt vile disgust for the man who killed the boy. Am I right? If this is the case, then all crime, as well as their punishments, are judged according to our emotions. Not all crimes are equal, as well, not all crimes can be punished the same.

It's the brutality of the crime that makes the difference. It's not the emotion that brings about the verdict.

If you want to say we judge crimes through emotion - then you would have to use a more realistic example.

1) A 20 year old goes to a prostitute and gets arrested
2) A 40 year old goes to a prostitute and gets arrested while his dying wife is in the hospital.

Now if these two crimes are treated differently - then the verdict is solely on emotion.

Originally posted by Millane

yes but i was talking about YOU not having an opinion about this issue because it didnt happen to occur in NJ...\

Millane - I can have opinion on it. But I will leave out what Florida should or should not do. Too many people like to say what the US should do and then make comments such as "when you come over to the civilized nations" - implying that we are not civilized because we allow states to have the death penalty. That is your opinion and I can make similar comments about other countries. Australia for example - with immigrants and the aborgines people. Europe's treatment of jews, gypsies and immigrants. If people want to talk about civility and how the US is - then we can bring up everything we disagree with in every country. Just because we allow the death penalty does mean we are "lower" than you.

And if Australia allowed murder and pedophilia - I think that is really your choice. Don't know how long you would last as a country if anyone was allowed murder people though.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's the brutality of the crime that makes the difference. It's not the emotion that brings about the verdict.

If you want to say we judge crimes through emotion - then you would have to use a more realistic example.

1) A 20 year old goes to a prostitute and gets arrested
2) A 40 year old goes to a prostitute and gets arrested while his dying wife is in the hospital.

Now if these two crimes are treated differently - then the verdict is solely on emotion.

Since the dying wife is not part of the evidence against the man, then it would not play a part in the judgement.

I have to disagree with you. Brutality is measured by how we feel about what is done. Right? Someone may slap another across the face, that is brutal. But another might slash another with a knife across the face, that is more brutal.

I'll use an example that is closer...
crime #1. A man kills another man in a drunken bar brawl with a knife, simply because the other man was laughing too loud.
crime #2. A man kills a 6 year old boy he sees on the street with a knife, simply because the boy was playing too loud.

The second crime we would judge to be 'more brutal' (as you put it) because we have more sympathy for the little boy. Even though both crimes were senseless, we judge the second crime more harshly.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Since the dying wife is not part of the evidence against the man, then it would not play a part in the judgement.

I have to disagree with you. Brutality is measured by how we feel about what is done. Right? Someone may slap another across the face, that is brutal. But another might slash another with a knife across the face, that is more brutal.

I'll use an example that is closer...
crime #1. A man kills another man in a drunken bar brawl with a knife, simply because the other man was laughing too loud.
crime #2. A man kills a 6 year old boy he sees on the street with a knife, simply because the boy was playing too loud.

The second crime we would judge to be 'more brutal' (as you put it) because we have more sympathy for the little boy. Even though both crimes were senseless, we judge the second crime more harshly.

Actually - I judge both crimes the same - unless the guy killed the other guy in self defense. One may have more emotion toward it and the argument can be put that the boy was younger and defenseless - but that has nothing to do with emotion.

As for the woman dying - that can be brought out. But - being arrested for going to a prostitute does not go before a jury.

All crimes have weights to them - and no crime is the same. This does not mean that the determining factor is emotion. It's how much the person suffered, what was the motivation behind the killing and so forth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

What if a prostitute is brutally murdered, compared to, say, a drunk bum living under a bridge? Are they not both lives? Is one less deserving than the other to have their murders vendicated? Would there murders be less important to a murder like Carlie's because the prostitute engaged in an illegal profession, or the bum was a bum?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Actually - I judge both crimes the same - unless the guy killed the other guy in self defense. One may have more emotion toward it and the argument can be put that the boy was younger and defenseless - but that has nothing to do with emotion.

As for the woman dying - that can be brought out. But - being arrested for going to a prostitute does not go before a jury.

All crimes have weights to them - and no crime is the same. This does not mean that the determining factor is emotion. It's how much the person suffered, what was the motivation behind the killing and so forth.

But, the fact is, laws are actually written so that 'harm to a child' is a worse crime than harm to an adult.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What if a prostitute is brutally murdered, compared to, say, a drunk bum living under a bridge? Are they not both lives? Is one less deserving than the other to have their murders vendicated? Would there murders be less important to a murder like Carlie's because the prostitute engaged in an illegal profession, or the bum was a bum?

No, neither deserves death. But we do not connect emotionally to them when the news media says "prostitute murdered" or "transient murdered". We do, however, emotionally connect with the little boy or girl that is murdered. Everyone has been a little boy or girl once in their lives. Not everyone has been a transient or prostitute. It is the emotional connection to the victim that enduces the level of distress we feel over the crime.

[Beor]

Thats a really good point, and now I feel like a bad person, because, all of the Iraqis that I have seen dead I didnt really care about, not until I saw some of my boys dead, then I was (terrible to say, but in the intrest of honesty) actually glad, even though I didnt know them, because I in some twisted way figured that they must have had something to do with my fellow soldiers death. This sucks.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I think Millane is right in a sense that we do judge all crimes with emotion. I would say further, that we not only judge them on emotion, but we punish according to that emotion as well.

For example, read the next two crimes and tell me how you felt when reading them....
crime #1. A man propositions a prostitute.
crime #2. A man kidnaps, rapes and tortures a 6 year old boy for days, cuts his throat and dumps his naked body into a ditch.

Very good exercise, Ruinel, and I think does a lot to help clarify this discussion.

Yes, there is a very strong emotional response to crime 2; yes that is a very big part of how we determine what's a crime and what isn't. We're human, we empathise with others' suffering, and that's a big clue as to when a crime is taking place.

Deciding on a punishment, though, should not be led by emotion, because otherwise you end up with the law being an ass. Consistency is essential or else you have no justice. Since everyone's emotions are different, you would end up with no consistency.

That's how you get guys getting off with a warning for date rape: because the male judge used his emotions too much and judged that "she was asking for it".

I seem to be in agreement with JD on this. *looks out window to check if hell has frozen over *

You could argue that it's inconsistent to make child murder worse than adult murder.

[The Gaffer]

Cross-post

I'd still argue that it doesn't make the crime better or worse just because we can identify with them If justice is for all, then it has to be blind and not influenced by how popular the victim is.

Beor, that's terrible and I'm sorry that you are having to go through all that. I would reckon it's completely normal to have those sorts of feelings about people who are your enemy and have been trying to harm you.

[Beor]

*looks out window to check if hell has frozen over *

No, its warming up though


[edit] still cant figure out that quote thing... cross posts rock!

(oh well, man, life goes on)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, neither deserves death. But we do not connect emotionally to them when the news media says "prostitute murdered" or "transient murdered". We do, however, emotionally connect with the little boy or girl that is murdered. Everyone has been a little boy or girl once in their lives. Not everyone has been a transient or prostitute. It is the emotional connection to the victim that enduces the level of distress we feel over the crime.

are you confusing emotional reaction of the average person toward HEARING about the crime to judgments brought about by emotion? Because sure EVERYONE has an emotional reaction to any given crime depending on the particular situation. Thats no mystery. But you are NOT supposed to make a legal judgment (as a juror) based on how angry you are about the details of the crime. Nevermind the severity of the sentence, judging on emotion can lead to the increased liklihood of an innocent person being found guilty to begin with (because you are furious about the nature of the crime itself and it clouds your judgment as to examining ALL the evidence and whether the person on trial really is guilty of it). In fact most courts would throw out any juror who openly admited that they planned on making a decision based on their anger or their disgust or whatever. thats why they try to keep them insulated from the media to begin with.

But, the fact is, laws are actually written so that 'harm to a child' is a worse crime than harm to an adult.

they are? there are murder distinctions for age of the victim?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Very good exercise, Ruinel, and I think does a lot to help clarify this discussion.

Yes, there is a very strong emotional response to crime 2; yes that is a very big part of how we determine what's a crime and what isn't. We're human, we empathise with others' suffering, and that's a big clue as to when a crime is taking place.

Thanks. That's the response that I expected, because we are all human, after all. And our emotional response is important to defining our humanity.

Deciding on a punishment, though, should not be led by emotion, because otherwise you end up with the law being an ass. Consistency is essential or else you have no justice. Since everyone's emotions are different, you would end up with no consistency.

That's how you get guys getting off with a warning for date rape: because the male judge used his emotions too much and judged that "she was asking for it".

I seem to be in agreement with JD on this. *looks out window to check if hell has frozen over *

You could argue that it's inconsistent to make child murder worse than adult murder.

There actually are no true consistencies. Crimes have a range of punishment that are handed down depending upon many factors: how many times this person has been convicted of this crime, and the severity of the crime itself. One person who technically commits the same crime as another may be given a harsher punishment than another. The victim or the way in which the crime was actually commited plays a part in the punishment. Does that make sense?