10-24-2003, 12:57 AM | #81 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
|
There once was a king named Theoden
Long a revered leader of Rohan. He was duped by a Grima But saved by a maia. Then became a leader of men again.
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! |
10-24-2003, 12:59 AM | #82 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
I mean, go to the Books forum and read the posts there now. I don't mean how many ever. Gee. Why not run those numbers on JD since he's inclined to attack people and call them non-readers? Why not tell us exactly where he has been spending his time here?
__________________
cya |
10-24-2003, 01:03 AM | #83 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-24-2003, 01:11 AM | #84 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
Everyone- If this thread does not get back on topic and stay there, it is going to be closed.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-24-2003, 01:21 AM | #85 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Okay, back on subject.
After a long time of his lies and deciet, Grima Wormtongue has made Theoden blind to logic and what is REALLY going on in the world. In a sense Grima has poisoned Theoden with his lies.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
10-24-2003, 01:24 AM | #86 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
I suspect that b.banner, the person who started this thread, hasn't read the books yet, either. (How's THAT for a segue?!) Theoden is one of Tolkien's favorite characters, I am certain, because he has a name that means "prince" in anglo-saxon, and that was Tolkien's specialty. The state that he is in as depicted in the movie is a sorry one, and I trust the movie-goers will come to love him. Did you see in the trailer that Pippin is swearing fealty to him? I think you'll all love that scene!
__________________
cya |
10-24-2003, 06:45 AM | #87 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
|
Quote:
It sure seems a tad hypocritical for jerseydevil and his Tolkien "Truth Squad" to be believe they're allowed to make assumptions based on the text but not Peter Jackson. Speaking of hypocritical... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
10-24-2003, 07:00 AM | #88 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Back to Theoden's exorcism: in the book this is referred to several times after the event as Gandalf's act of healing or restoration. For this reason I'd always marked the event as being fairly dramatic and important. Not least of the reasons is that we have Gandalf clearly fulfilling his role in Middle-Earth as one who inspires people to greatness. A low-key rendition of the scene would have failed to convey this. |
|
10-24-2003, 07:13 AM | #89 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
|
Quote:
__________________
I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
|
10-24-2003, 07:31 AM | #90 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
|
Quote:
I find it shocking that some here never understood when they read the books that Gandalf's staff was used inside the Golden Hall to restore Theoden to his old self. |
|
10-24-2003, 11:24 AM | #91 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
Quote:
I would have checked my books before I posted last night but they are all packed up. I'm moving this weekend.
__________________
cya |
|
10-24-2003, 11:25 AM | #92 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
One more time: Everyone, and that includes myself, stay on topic. One more off topic post regarding anything other than Theoden in the movie, I will close this thread.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-24-2003, 12:05 PM | #93 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
In my opinion, Bernard Hill(though he is a very good actor) was overacting as theoden.
"no parent should have to bury his child"
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
10-24-2003, 12:10 PM | #94 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with FĂ«anor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
10-24-2003, 12:19 PM | #95 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind the Walls of Night
Posts: 286
|
Back to Theoden's exorcism, let's see what the book says.
TTT - The King of the Golden Hall He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth. In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Hama, has betrayed us!' There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face. 'Now Theoden, son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?' said Gandalf. 'Do you ask for help?' He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky. 'Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that depair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears. I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.' Slowly Theoden left his chair. A faint light grew in the hall again. The women hastened to the king's side, taking his arm, and with faltering steps the old man came down from the dais and paced softly through the hall. Wormtongue remained lying on the floor. They came to the doors and Gandalf knocked. The scene in the film is so different then the scene in the book that I can't believe they are supposed to be a part of the same story. Gandalf does use magic in the Golden Hall, but all it really does is shut Grima up and makes Theoden listen to what Gandalf has to say. The scene in the film made me loose the human connection to Theoden, in the book it is his decision to listen to Gandalf, Gandalf used no force against Theoden, well maybe alittle fear, but Theoden gets up by his own will, he goes outside on his own will, with the help of Gandalf Theoden breaks the hold Grima has on him.
__________________
"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
10-24-2003, 12:22 PM | #96 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-24-2003, 12:25 PM | #97 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Sorry Artanis. That scene didnt belong in there. It was very out of place and over done.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
10-24-2003, 12:43 PM | #98 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
Regarding MB's post, it goes back to what I was saying about listening to cynical counselors. I think it is an important theme. Olorin moved quietly through the third age counselling leaders and giving them hope. I can't get to my Silmarillion right now, but I am sure this is a scene from LotR that bears out the nature of this Istari. Grima is the ultimate bad counselor. All lovers of medieval lit know about his type. Presented as "posession", the theme is simply not developed. Aragorn always listened to the right counselor. Faramir always did, too.
I still like the movies a lot, but I regret that this theme got lost.
__________________
cya |
10-24-2003, 12:52 PM | #99 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Yes, too bad.
The problem with PJ is that he made the excorcism so "magical" when it wasnt intended(well... it wasnt supposed to be in there inthe first place) to be so magical. Gandalf doesnt fly, he doesnt make a blue power flame spring up out of his staff and kill a lot of people. He shuldnt excorcise people either. ok, lets not get into the PJ thing again, sorry SGH. My post does have to do with theoden though, so dont close the thread.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 10-24-2003 at 12:54 PM. |
10-24-2003, 12:59 PM | #100 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
"Neither genuine hypnosis, nor variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and it's after impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers"
J.R.R. Tolkien from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman #210 I think that covers posession. Tolkien's theme is how Saruman's words via Grima have "persuaded" Theoden. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|