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#881 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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Bloody hell is this one STILL rumbling on?
Nice debate but 12 years late. Iraq was quite open about its chemical weapon capability then and there wasn't much debate about their theatre weapons as they were dropping them on Israel at the time. The best time for "the West" (let's generalise it to spare sensitive souls) to get tough on Saddam was when his army was in shreds, the Marsh Arabs were rising in revolt and coalition forces were advancing on Basra. I as working at a defence establishment at the time and pretty much everyone thought the end to the 1991 war came prematurely. Then it was the leaders of "the West" that meekly claimed they wished to obey the UN resolution to liberate Kuwait and no more. I don't recall there being much concerted pressure on "the West" - there hadn't been time, for starters - but suddenly everyone was keen to slam on the brakes and watch as the falsely encouraged Iraqi rebels were stamped on. 12 years ago blokes with allied armies in Iraq reached for the UN rulebook, played it cautiously and let Saddam be - and were hailed as victors. Sort of ironic that those same attributes now are being portrayed as the the ultimate in cowardice and ingratitude. Times change, n'est pa?
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#882 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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We allowed the resistence movement within Iraq to think that they could rise up against Hussein and they'd have backing. Instead 50,000 paid with their lives. Then when Hussein kicked out the inspectors - the UN and the world said "oh well". France during this same time - even though Hussein did not comply with a single resolution - has repeatedly called for the lifting of sanctions.
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#883 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
At that point we had Saddam Hussein's army cornered and could easily have won the war. Whether we had European backing or not at that point, I think, wouldn't have made much difference. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-17-2003 at 01:20 PM. |
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#884 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
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#885 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oxon, UK
Posts: 638
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The US wasn't bothered about Saddam as long as he toed the line and only killed Kurds and Iranians. In fact, that was his job. They thought he'd learn his lesson and get back to what he was good at after 1991, which he did, hence 12 years of containment.
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#886 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
And if we wanted him to get on with killing Kurds - do you really think we'd be spending billions protecting them in the north? or protecting the Shi'ites in the south?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-17-2003 at 01:57 PM. |
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#887 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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Quote:
Valid explanation? Then you should have no trouble explaining this: As you have defended: Saddan have mass destruction weapons, he have contacts with terrorists, and he is likely to us them, so a war is made to prevent him of using them. But now comes the incongruent point; if he has the weapons and the will to use them, won’t he use them if attacked? And if he uses them if attacked, doesn’t that make void the motive for the war, which is supposedly to prevent it? Not that I’m really expecting an answer to this…
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 02-17-2003 at 03:30 PM. |
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#888 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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So in other words - what you are saying is that we should just let him go on developing them until he has enough to actually use them in offensive - instead of a defensive posture where we currently have the upper hand??? The role of the war is to disarm him - if he uses them during the war - he will not have any left and he will be removed from power. We will NOT have to worry about him again in 5 or 10 years like we do now with North Korea. If something isn't done now - you will be seeing the following in 10 years from Iraq... Quote:
By the way - your same argument was used with Hitler during WWII. -"Maybe if we let him go - he won't attack us" it didn't work then - and it won't work now.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-17-2003 at 04:09 PM. |
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#889 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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Quote:
Then I suppose we should not bother with him at all, at that speed he won’t do it before he dies of old age. Quote:
JR, those weapons have only one use, and one use alone, dissuasion. If you actually use them against another country, then it always becomes an offensive weapon, and the result is always the same, retaliation and complete destruction. But you are right in one thing, if you attack and he is as dangerous as you believe you won’t have to worry with him in 5 years, you will have to worry with him now. For if he do have close contacts with terrorists, and if he is willing to use them that way, then they already have them, and furthermore even after wining the war I bet you won’t find most of what is now currently missing. As for North Korea, a rather uninspired propaganda speech don’t you think?
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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#890 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Also - by your rationale of dealing with Iraq =- I guess we should just let North Korea go. They haven't used their weapons yet. They haven't in FIFTY years - so what makes us think they will now????
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-17-2003 at 05:15 PM. |
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#891 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oxon, UK
Posts: 638
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Quote:
All these Hitler analogies are utterly bankrupt. Iraq is a total mess, Germany in the late 30s was the second largest economy in the world, with the largest military machine. OK, both Hussein and Hitler are utter bar stewards who deserve to be tied up and shot with a blunderbuss loaded with their own *****e, but that's as far as it goes. Just because you were 2 years late for that war doesn't mean you need to be early for this one. ![]() cheers d By the way, that was a joke |
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#892 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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We live in the Twenty-FIRST Century now. You don't need a huge military machine or large economy to do what Hitler did. Osama bin Ladin took down two office buildings which had more business space than all of the city of San Diego. All it took for him to do that was a couple of box cutters and a few plane tickets. maybe you don't realise how big those buildings were - but they had their own zip code. They were basically a city within a city. (And don't tell me that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 because I know that) - I'm just pointing out that in order to do massive damage an d to wage war in todays time - you do NOT need the massive military or economy that Hitler needed. Look at North Korea - their country is bankrupt - their people are starving. They may have 1 million strong in their military - but we CAN take them out. It gets much more difficult when you are dealing with biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Again - if you want to use that excuse for Iraq - then why are we worrying about North Korea? It doesn't take much to produce chemical and biological weapons which will cause a LOT MORE civilian casualties than the German Blitzkrieg did during the bombing of London. Quote:
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#893 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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Not what I believe neither, BUT according with the War apologists should be true. After all, they are the ones saying he has the connections with them, and is willing to give those weapons to them. If he has the contacts and the willingness, why wouldn’t he use them? There is a gap in the reasoning there. It doesn’t make any sense at all that he, having those weapons all this time, and being eager to use them, never deployed them out of the country and tried to blackmail the west against the lifting of the sanctions or for another dark scheme of expansion. In fact, you seem to believe that it isn’t even likely that he, after 9/11 did deployed them, just in case if he got attacked due to his terrorist contacts. Quote:
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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#894 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 02-17-2003 at 06:28 PM. |
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#895 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oxon, UK
Posts: 638
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Quote:
However, I'm glad you mentioned that, because it's another example of how you've got it all wrong over Iraq/Al-Qaida and terrorism. It's a simple fact that you cannot defeat terrorism in a war. By its nature, all you need are a few diehard nutters and they can wreak all manner of devastation. New technologies (always developed by states, by the way) just provide new ways of doing it. They can, and do, hide anywhere. There are two ways of doing it: having a police state, which worked quite effectively in the Soviet bloc (though how well we probably don't really know), or eroding their support. |
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#896 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
I should remind you that Slobodan Milosevic didn't attack any other countries. His attrocities could have been contained within his country possibly. We can never know. Maybe we should have waited longer to take action against him. Wait until he ACTUALLY attacked another country.
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#897 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: america junior
Posts: 320
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Finally...
Someone in the government who is saying something....
War: The Most Horrible Human Experience Senator Robert Byrd, AlterNet February 17, 2003 Viewed on February 17, 2003 U.S. Senator Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia) made the following statement on the floor of the Senate on Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2003. To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war. Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing. We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war. And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world. This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11. Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher. This Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.
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peace never hurt anyone "Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of Truth." Johann Georg von Zimmermann |
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#898 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: america junior
Posts: 320
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Continued...
In that scant two years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits as far as the eye can see. This Administration's domestic policy has put many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly. This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our long and porous borders.
In foreign policy, this Administration has failed to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time, International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO. This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats, labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have consequences for years to come. Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil, denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant -- these types of crude insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not just sign letters cheering us on. The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land. Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace? And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reigns of power after Saddam Hussein? Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq? Could a disruption of the world's oil supply lead to a world-wide recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more lucrative practice for nations which need the income? In only the space of two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years. One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is nearly impossible to exact retribution. But to turn one's frustration and anger into the kind of extremely destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.
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peace never hurt anyone "Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of Truth." Johann Georg von Zimmermann |
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#899 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: america junior
Posts: 320
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Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the nation of Iraq -- a population, I might add, of which over 50 percent is under age 15 -- this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and biological warfare -- this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.
We are truly "sleepwalking through history." In my heart of hearts I pray that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a rudest of awakenings. To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a nation which is over 50 percent children is "in the highest moral traditions of our country." This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © 2003 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved. Sorry this was so long, but I think it's a really great speech, and basically I agree with everything in it, and my guess is a lot of other people do too.... It would be great if someone would listen to this guy!
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peace never hurt anyone "Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of Truth." Johann Georg von Zimmermann |
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#900 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Too bad there has been discussion - incuding Congress overwhelmingly giving the president authorization to use force against Iraq.
He may not like what the majority of the Senate feels - but that is his problem. The "non-supporters" are in the minority in Congress.
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