01-27-2006, 11:46 AM | #861 | |
Elf Lord
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By the way, recognizing that Jesus says, "I am the truth, the way and the life," is important. Language matters. He didn't say, "I am a truth, a way and a life." Just making sure we all recognize this important point. So to you, Spock, how does this context alter the meaning?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-27-2006 at 11:48 AM. |
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01-27-2006, 11:53 AM | #862 | |
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01-27-2006, 12:40 PM | #863 |
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I say, BJ, you seem to think God is made in the image of man. Christianity asserts that man is made in the image of God. And that the Divine Humility is such that HE became human, but here's a literary expression you may find interesting:
http://merecomments.typepad.com/mere...edict_a_3.html Enjoy!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-27-2006, 12:54 PM | #864 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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IMO, this holds true for those who believe that Christianity is for them. However, Jews have 'spoken with The Father' for centuries before and since Jesus was on earth and I cannot believe that the statement totally makes their beliefs invalid. Lastly, remember that Jesus also said : "I and my Father are one." and " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." One of my favorites is: "there are many paths to The Father". This was expressed recently, thusly: there are many paths to the Father where Christ can be found. He is not confined to one way as opposed to another. There are many churches and Christian sects who differ from one another in doctrine and theology, rituals of liturgy and sacrament, and in polity and every day practice in the field. Questions of who is right and who is wrong, who maintains orthodoxy and who pushes the window toward heresy, have occupied the church’s thinking always. Reformation is an ongoing necessity to keep the church true to its founder and relevant to the age in which it exists. Hope this clarifies my views on your question. Therefore it becomes a bridge and joins the two beliefs.
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01-27-2006, 01:24 PM | #865 |
Elf Lord
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a - theological counts, too, but does it?
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAF1A.htm a review of Richard Dawkins and thoughts.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-27-2006, 03:52 PM | #866 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't think I"m articulating this too well, I'm quite tired now. I guess this is kind of a first cut. But I think you're taking the predestination concept too far and applying it wholesale to everything in life, and I think that is an erroneous viewpoint. Why would God admonish us to choose things if He doesn't give us a choice? Usually in matters of interpretation, one interprets the unclear in the light of the clear, and I see personal choice written and called for all throughout the Bible, mixed in with moments of God not allowing us to choose. And the bigger issue, which I'm too tired to write about now, is how God Himself states that He relates to us. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-27-2006 at 03:55 PM. |
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01-27-2006, 04:00 PM | #867 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And they did
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-27-2006 at 04:01 PM. |
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01-27-2006, 04:06 PM | #868 | |
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01-27-2006, 04:19 PM | #869 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do you think that God said, in effect, ""...for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely xofitrwslknfg." ?
I think a reasonable assumption would be that if they didn't understand the word, they would ask what it meant.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-27-2006, 05:22 PM | #870 | |
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01-27-2006, 07:48 PM | #871 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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First, I'm assuming that God knows more than people do, and until a person creates a universe I think that's a pretty safe assumption.
Now given that assumption, I think a good analogy is me explaining something to my 9 year old daughter. She hasn't taken physics yet, and doesn't understand about potential energy, but I could still explain that it's dangerous standing under a huge rock that is unstable looking. She would understand well enough to make an informed decision. And besides, if you look at the reasons WHY Eve decided to go with what the serpent tempted her to do, it doesn't list "she didn't understand what death meant" as one of the options. One doesn't need to fully understand nuclear fusion to know that nuclear bombs will be harmful.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-27-2006, 08:23 PM | #872 | |||
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Maybe Adam and Eve did ask about the meaning of this new word... Eve: God, what did that last word you said mean? God: xofitrwslknfg? Eve: Yes, that's the one. God: It means that your life will end. Adam: But what is life? God: This is life. Your being. Your existence. Adam: But how can that end, it's the only thing that exists? God: There is death also. Adam: But what is- er... you know, we're not being deliberately obtuse here. Eve: We'll try to figure it out. Sorry to be a bother. God: Oh, it's no bother. Adam and Eve: *feel a bit sheepish* edited to add: By the way Lief, no pressure on the replies. Good luck on your exam!
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 01-27-2006 at 08:24 PM. |
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01-28-2006, 12:30 PM | #873 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Freedom to be who we are.
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I think that the modern philosophy of free will is an attempt by man to bring God down to their level, so that we can understand him better. We understand that for a human to inflict random pain on someone else, this is bad. We don't take into account that God's ways are higher than our ways. If some of his actions don't make sense to us, we assume there is no sense in them, and just as a human inflicting random pain on someone else is bad, God inflicting random pain on someone else is bad. We're making a rather drastic assumption when we say that because we can't see the sense in God's choice, there can be no sense to it. Another part of what inspires the philosophy of free will is that we hate the idea that we're out of control. We love to be in control. The more control we have, the better. The idea that we have no control, therefore, is instinctively repugnant. However, in his control, God does not forbid us from being ourselves. He creates us in a certain way. Then we act according to the personalities he has given us. We have complete freedom to act according to our own natures, and God does not limit that freedom, to my knowledge. God also has complete freedom to act according to his nature. None of us, and God also, has the freedom to act in a way that's contrary to our natures, yet all of us have the freedom to act according to our natures. We do not have free will in the sense of freedom to act according to someone else's personality. I could try to act like my brother and might pull it off for a while, but that's not me. In fact, the decision to imitate him comes from my personality. I cannot imitate him forever, either. As Jesus said, "out of the contents of his heart, man speaks." We do not have the freedom to choose anything God did not choose already, but we do have the freedom to be who we are and choose whatever comes out of our personality. God does not prevent us from being ourselves. This is the same with an author writing a book. His characters are who they are. They have their own personalities, and the author does not interfere in them. He respects his characters enough to give them the freedom to act in the way their personality dictates they should. The author does not make the characters act in ways that are inconsistent with who they are. We have freedom to be who we are, and God to be who he is, but none of us has free will to be someone else, or to do things that are contrary to who they are. Thus, in predestining, God does not interfere with who we are. He does not "control us". He decides what we will do, but we decide to do it because that's who we are. If a character in my book said to me, "why did you make me evil? Why don't you just let me change?" I would say tell that character, "you're being absurd! I don't make you do anything that doesn't come from you (or your own personality). Go change yourself!" If the character's personality is in such a condition that they want to change, the character will change. I will not use my omnipotence to make the character act in a way that is out-of-character. The character can choose for him or herself what he wants to do, not separate from my control, but not dominated by it either. Quote:
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Are you saying that God should give us freedom to act in ways that are outside of our personalities? Freedom to be someone else (though by the way, we do have the freedom to change in our personality, if it's in accord with the current personality that that personality change occurs)? Quote:
Am I making any sense? Quote:
Because we do not understand what all of his reasons might be, we should assume that there are no reasons. Is that what you're saying? Quote:
A difference between us and fictional characters is that we have had the breath of life breathed into us. We are real. Quote:
I don't see this as meaningless, or without point. In fact, I'd say it has maximum meaning. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-28-2006 at 12:42 PM. |
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01-28-2006, 02:41 PM | #874 | |||
Elf Lord
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Here lies a key difference between real life and the author analogy: we have the breath of life and my characters don't. My characters aren't alive, so there is no point in communicating with them. They don't feel and experience what I give them to feel and experience. God wouldn't love us anywhere near as much if we weren't real. In the final analysis and from a divine perspective, we have no choice. However, from our perspectives, we have choices and must live accordingly. From both a divine and a human perspective, we have the freedom to be who we are, and we are alive. We have as much freedom as God does, for we and God alike act according to our own natures. God loves us, for we are his living, beautiful and glorious creations, built in his image. In his love for us, God wants to communicate with us. In order to communicate with us, he must come down to our level somewhat. Quote:
If I don't decide what movie I'm going to watch tonight, but leave it instead to a sibling, I'm leaving it to chance, though I know my sibling and thus of course have an idea of what movie it'll be. So am I really leaving it to chance? God foreknows every decision we'll make, so if he leaves the decision to us, he knows whether we'll end up in heaven or hell. This leads to an interesting question. Is he really leaving it to chance? Not really. I decided to hand the decision of the movie over to my sibling, knowing (or having a good idea) what movie she'd choose. If I thought she'd choose something I didn't like, I could have just decided not to watch a movie! So I guess that's not really chance. But in that case, God must have willed pain, sin and hell, because he foreknew it and created anyway. Unless you argue he could not possibly have created in any way such that sin did not come to exist.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-28-2006, 03:04 PM | #875 | ||
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Nice post!
What about someone who believes in free will and not God? You couldn't say that person was trying to bring God down to their level (about modern free will philosophy). Not wanting to give up control is probably my biggest problem with predestination. I really started to understand your point of view in this post, even though my brain is completely mush. I stayed up all night, and I can barely read. When I am more functional, I'll respond to your post more thouroughlly. If your exam had essay questions, I bet you got an A+!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-28-2006, 04:36 PM | #876 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Even if Jews killed Jesus: How is it ok? How is it "righteous"? How is God merciful? Loving? Mind you, we're speaking of 6 millions that their only connection to the incident 2000 years ago is by blood, (and only partly). It's like you being punished because your grand grand grand mother was a murderer. Quote:
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01-28-2006, 04:42 PM | #877 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I don't mean to interupt but I have a question. What does it mean to be Jewish? Do you have to believe in God and the Torah and all or is it a cultural reference too? In which case, how did the culture and religion become separate? Thanks for anyone who wants to attempt to answer this
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01-28-2006, 06:16 PM | #878 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I'm still unsure, myself, whether or not the severe persecution the Jews have experienced is also a divine judgment for killing Christ. I'm unsure, still. However, I am quite sure that curses can come back to bite people, even many generations after, just as blessings also will. A curse that puts the shedding of God's blood on their heads and their offspring's heads is a horrible curse indeed. Such curses aren't just. They are demonic. They also are powerful. This one, I think, will be broken when Israel mourns for the one they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10-14). This matter has both its human and its divine aspects. Humans cursed themselves and on their offspring. God judges them early for their sin of rejecting him, though he will judge the Gentiles also with this sin in the end. I'm not arguing that the persecution the Jews have experienced is divine retribution for Jesus' death. I don't know if that is true. This curse was spoken by humans upon themselves and their offspring, not by God, and curses and blessings have spiritual power that does not always come from God. God is responsible, however, for the part of this that is punishment for rejecting him. What is it to accept God into one's heart? Accepting God into one's heart is accepting goodness. When Adam sinned, all men fell with him. Accepting Jesus into our hearts restores us, for he saves men from sin. Sin cannot hold those whom Jesus has entered. Jesus begins transforming them here and finishes the work in heaven. He undoes the evil created by Adam. One who rejects Jesus, then, rejects the mercy of God, for Jesus' suffering on the cross and his resurrection saved humanity. What is left for a just God to do with sinners who refuse his mercy? There can only be judgment. There is no other choice. Quote:
I have no clue how someone would attempt to rationalize free will while rejecting God and the soul. I'm stumped by that. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-28-2006 at 08:08 PM. |
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01-28-2006, 08:40 PM | #879 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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oh, xofitrwslknfg!!!!!
I'm so frustrated at not being able to respond, I"m just feeling so darn punk! I'll pick one or two things out from the myriad that I want to respond to: Quote:
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I don't think it's true. I asked you this before, but I"ll ask again - what are some of the analogies that God Himself uses to illustrate the relationship between Him and us, and what's your estimate of the relative frequency of their usage? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-28-2006, 11:24 PM | #880 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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My predestination views are little different. According to predestination views, God planned what he would do beforehand and created as he did with good purpose. However, at the same time he created his creatures with certain personalities and the freedom to act according to those personalities. His will and theirs was done. The free will example is the same. God created, and his will as well as his creations' was done. Otherwise, he'd have created in a different way. Since he chose to create, he bears the responsibility for all he foreknew would happen, before creating. It really all comes to the same thing. Quote:
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The Bible is full of the word "choose" because God has to use it to communicate with us. From our perspective we have choices, and he has to reach us on our level in order to bring us closer to his. Just as a math teacher would have to start with basic addition and then move his students up. He can't talk to us all the time on a level that we only have a toehold on. Quote:
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At a guess, here's how I'd order the frequency. 1# Father and child. This appears all over Psalms and pretty much every book of the Bible. It's very common. 2# Husband and wife. There's a whole book devoted to this analogy, the Song of Songs. However, I don't think that this analogy is as frequent as the Father and child one. Although Jesus called himself the Bridegroom, this was a far more uncommon name for him than the Father's, for God the Father was one of the Father's most commonly used names. 3# Shepherd and sheep. I encounter this in a number of places. 4# Manager and servant, brother, and potter and clay. Granted, potter and clay is much less common. It also wasn't one that Jesus spoke to us, but that Paul did (though what he wrote is the Word of God). To me, this indicates that this is because predestination is not one of the most important messages God wants to drive into our psyche. More important by far is for us to be aware of how terribly important to him we are. He wants a perfect, glorious relationship with us. Love must be central. There are so many really important messages in the Bible, I just don't think predestination is one of the most important ones. It certainly isn't a point necessary for salvation. It is included in the Bible, and pointed out in many different places, though, because it is useful for us to know about to live our lives. When we see events as they really are, from the hand of God, it puts our lives and reactions in perspective. When we see that we are not responsible for our goodness, that God chose and predestined us for glory, we will not quickly say, "I chose what these nonbelievers haven't. I am superior." We won't be able to say, "I have done good works and these others haven't." Rather, all the good we have accomplished will have merely come from the hand of God. We will have only "done our duty" on Judgment Day, and will have nothing about which to boast. Understanding of predestination helps to respond to evil times appropriately, seeing them as tests from God rather than random horrors God has permitted but has no hand in. It will help us to also behave in greater humility. However, it is not essential to our spiritual lives. It is not a key to salvation. Awareness helps us in living our lives, but does not make our lives, like Christ in us does. So I am glad it is not one of the most central truths, and I am glad it is given a lesser place in the Bible, a lesser place to those other truths that are far more important for us to know about. Quote:
It's like saying, "we have a creator. God exists though, so he must have a creator too. Are there endless creators?" The rules that apply to creation don't necessarily apply to Creator.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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