08-31-2001, 05:17 PM | #61 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Here's hoping I'm not being repetitive repetitive
I think we do enjoy the exchange as much as you do Elvellon. I know I do.
I agree with your second paragraph (first one after the 'personality' title), but I have a niggle. According to one source, the Annals of Aman (published in Morgoth's Ring, the writing is by no means entirely congruent with later ideas, but it's a great source nonetheless), Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë were the only Elves willing to go to Valinor. If Finwë and Elwë were not -- as I think they were not -- descended from the Second and Third Elves Tata and Enel, them going as ambassadors of the Quendi must have meant that they were very adventurous friends, with a strong desire to see the wide world, and perhaps they were also very ambitious. They must have gone through a drastic change with their going to Valinor and returning, and leading their peoples on to see the Light. They definitely met with ennoblement. Ingwë on the other hand, because of his name, I believe to be descended from, either in the next generation or the one after that, from the first Elf: Imin. It is also notable, in relation to your post Elvellon, that Morgoth greatly feared Thingol and Melian. But why must we assume Thingol knew Finrod would give his life for Beren at all? Is it not possible that Thingol never fully realized the full meaning of the giving of Finrod's Ring to Barahir? As far as we know he had not heard of the cold words Finrod told his sister in Nargothrond. With regard to the Avari, perhaps you are assuming too much. According to the tale of the Fall of Man that Tolkien wrote, Morgoth met the Hildor long before any Elves did. Doubtless they did learn from the Avari in the Far East, perhaps those faithful to Eru and those others, but there's no record I know of dealing with a betrayal. Oh, Book of Lost Tales? I haven't read much of it. Maybe. Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born. Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with. Tolkien's last word on Orcs (which I now know can be found in Morgoth's Ring) was that they were corrupted Men, but this depends on the very new idea. Quote:
These are the passages dealing with the early days of Thingol and the Exiled Noldor, from Of the Return of the Noldor: Quote:
On the other hand Angrod is said to be the messenger of Finrod here. Perhaps Thingol had Finrod's kin especially in mind, as he would in any case forbid anyone else to enter. Maybe in time he would have, had he never learned of the Kinslaying. But that was inevitable, and Faenor's sons accomplished enough evil anyway for him to ban them from the land. Yet even Fingolfin's sons, although not bereft of Thingol's friendship, were not allowed within Doriath. Quote:
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09-02-2001, 02:06 AM | #62 | |
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As for his being afraid, yes, but I still think it to be because of his dreams. I believe that he saw some great peril to come to Doriath because of men, and probably thought it fulfilled through Beren. If he thought he still had anything to fear from the Atani, he never would have taken in Turin as his foster son.
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09-02-2001, 10:57 AM | #63 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Here is another annoying aspect of Thingol concerning Men. The book says that he had these dreams and that none save Finrod consulted with him regarding the coming of Men and this displeased him. Well how in the world was anyone else suppose to consult him on these matters, when he allowed no one else to come into Doriath? I think this guy wants his lembus and eat it too.
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09-05-2001, 04:17 AM | #64 |
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Inoldonil, I finally got a little time to write back, so here it goes:
-About why Thingol denied entrance in Doriath to the Noldor at the very beginning Here, of course we can devise several explanations; it could be that Thingol simply gave a “political” answer as you said, or, it could be that for a time, (thanks to the merit of Angrod perhaps), he actually considered to open his borders to visiting Noldor, (something that didn’t happened, but we must not forget that at least the Feanorians took Thingol’s words poorly, so it might not be entirely is fault). Still, there is a problem has I see it; what was the nature of Thingol’s fear? I don’t accept the theory that he denied admittance in Doriath to the Noldor because he was a racist. As it is said in the Silmarillion he may have feared the Noldor’s greed for lands (and as we know, the desire for new lands to call as their own was one of the reasons for the return of the Noldor). Still, I ´m not entirely satisfied with this explanation either, he didn´t trust the Noldor, this is plain, but he overreact by not allowing visits but those of his kin .It might be, in the end, that Thingol may have had a vague premonition about the doom of Doriath, perhaps not knowing the nature of what was going to happen or how the Noldor were related with it, an irrational motive for an irrational action. -Regarding the Nandor and the Avari: Unfortunately I don’t have the time to give a full explanation just now, I just hope I will be able to give one later on. Quote: “…Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with.” No, I don’t mean the very last idea that Tolkien had about that (I still like more the ones he wrote before). Quote: “Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born. “ Of course, but if any news came from such a betrayal of the Avari by Men in the East it would be but a vague rumour by the time it reached Eriador, and, if I am not mistaken the Edain took the Elves side since the very beginning. Anyway, what might be of relevance is that by the time the Edain came into Eriador many human tribes were already seduced by Evil. Did the Nandor of Eriador hear any word about it from their cousins further east? If they did they probably have heard only vague stories about it and word of the friendship of the Edain would also have reach them. By the way, of course this is just speculation, but what happened back in Hildorien was never well explained in Tolkien’s later works, or at least I don’t remember it. Quote: “But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. “In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.” I think you may believe I was confusing the Avari with the Nandor, not so. Of course the Nandor are not Avari, the first were of the people of Dan and the later may have been, for the most part, kin of the Noldor (and not just those in Eriador but the majority of the Avari everywhere, if I recall it right). Quote: “In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.” Are you sure about that? I can’t recall any such definitive statement. I guess I’ll have to read my books again, as soon as I find the time for it. But don’t forget, Thingol’s realm were all of Beleriand, and I suppose many sindar outside Doriath still considered him as their high-king. It is natural that some of the nomad sindar hunters would eventually find some Avari and trade stories… quote: Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him? “Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee. “ Well, I think it might be that Beren was Luthien’s Sam.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 09-05-2001 at 04:21 AM. |
09-05-2001, 06:22 PM | #65 | |
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Dan I think is the old form of the name. Later it was revealed to Tolkien that his name was actually Lenwë, or his name in Quenya histories anyway. I believe his Nandorin name was Denweg, or something alone those lines. I don't recall his Primitive Quendian name. More of the Avari I think were Nelyar, akin to the Teleri (rather than Tatyar, akin to the Ñoldor). Yes, I am sure the Avari never entered Doriath. They were secretive folk living in the southern forests, akin to the Ñoldor and hostile to them. I imagine if Thingol would only allow his own kin from other Races into his Guarded Realm, he certainly would not allow (he and Melian would not allow, it's very difficult to pass the Girdle) Avari in, who were not akin to him and had no Lindarin blood. News might come to him, certainly, if these Avari were friendly, but they were not. And the Teleri did not come into contact with their Avarin kin until later Ages had come, long after the Ruin of Doriath. (The Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm and the Galadhrim had mingled with Avari). Your only problem seems to be the lack of The War of the Jewels Quendi and Eldar is in there, which includes all this information about the Nandor and Avari.
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09-05-2001, 08:53 PM | #66 |
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I agree with Inoldonil. I think that he did change, eventually. He
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09-05-2001, 11:15 PM | #67 | |
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Also, his actions after Hurin had thrown the Nauglamir at his feet, he was moved to pity, rather than anger. I have also had reason to re-think my former reaction to Thingol's harsh words to the Dwarves when they withheld the Nauglamir from him. I said earlier that it was his pride that undid him in that moment. It seems obvious to me now that there were also two more powerful forces at work. One was the fact that the Nauglamir was presented to him by Hurin, a man that he respected, in memory of Turin, a man that he loved, and the Silmaril that was now a part of the Nauglamir was hard won by Beren and Luthien. Second, was that the Doom of the Noldor had come upon him, for .."Thingol's thought turned uncreasingly to the jewel of Feanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury..." His words to the Dwarves were my only problem with thinking that he had truly and totally changed. Now that I look at it in this light however, that he couldn't help himself because of his lust for the Silmaril, and his love for Beren, Luthien, and Turin, I beleive that he truly did change, but his doom was sealed the minute he even gave thought to possession of a Silmaril.
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09-06-2001, 02:34 AM | #68 |
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Looked up Lenwë's Primitive Elvish name: turns out it wasn't Primitive Quendian at all, but Common Eldarin (the language the Eldar developed during the Great Journey and ancestor of all Eldarin languages). It was Denwego.
It may be noted there is no narrative written by JRR Tolkien dealing with Thingol and the Dwarves when Middle-earth existed. We only know he 'quarreled with the Dwarves'. He was either lured out of Doriath, or induced to go to war, and was slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departed, the Girdle was lifted and the Dwarves ravaged Doriath. Of The Ruin of Doriath seems to be the chapter Christopher Tolkien regrets most. He sort of went beyond his role as 'editor'.
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09-06-2001, 09:49 AM | #69 |
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Yes, even I agree that Thingol changed after Beren. He was much more accepting of Men, and his fostering of Turin reflects how great this change was.
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09-06-2001, 10:20 AM | #70 | |
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09-06-2001, 10:35 AM | #71 | |
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09-06-2001, 10:58 AM | #72 |
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I know, for a long time the Silmarillion was all I had to go on about the First Age. It is very hard for me to go against what was written there. It would be like someone telling me 'much of what you think you know about the Roman Empire is wrong...but here are some other books which contradict what you know...'
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09-06-2001, 12:21 PM | #73 | |
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09-06-2001, 01:13 PM | #74 |
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I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying but it appears we sort of agree. I understand what CT was trying to accomplish with the Silmarillion, and I think it was well done. What I was saying is that I wish that when I first read the Silmarillion years ago, that I would have known that he had embellished so much on his father's ideas. When I said that it was "hard for me to go against what was written there", I didn't mean that I accept it as JRRT's vision, but that it is hard for me to not have it be the first thing that pops in my mind when I discuss the First Age.
As for HoME doing more harm than good though, I disagree, without it there would be much less to argue about?
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"Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest." Feanor |
09-06-2001, 02:12 PM | #75 | |
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09-06-2001, 07:42 PM | #76 |
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Don't be sorry, I was j/k.
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09-07-2001, 05:09 PM | #77 | |
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09-07-2001, 09:41 PM | #78 |
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I told all my family, nobody cared. I told all my friends, nobody cared. Now I'm telling you guys, and I know you'll care. Today, I went out and bought: "The Lost Road and Other Writings" and "The Book of Lost Tales 2." So, I'm getting there.
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09-08-2001, 12:49 AM | #79 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, I do care!
You must read the Lost Road! (that is, the actual text called The Lost Road inside The Lost Road and Other Writings). Of all Tolkien's writings, it is the most dear to me. Of course you are free to trash it when you are finished, but I hope you get a chance to read it all the same
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09-08-2001, 05:01 PM | #80 | |
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Re: Yes, I do care!
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