Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[Noble Elf Lord]

Guarding the blades makes sense, but why not destroy them in the first place?

Yeah, sorry I'm tired. Maybe that was a stupid question...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Guarding the blades makes sense, but why not destroy them in the first place?

Good question.
Maybe because the Wights, obsessed with guarding ancient treasures, wouldn't break the beautiful weapons. Maybe the Witch King had never been in the Barrows in person before the year of LOTR (3018): he only sent the Wights there. Or maybe there were too many enchanted swords, who knows?

[Butterbeer]

Ah... had he but an Eagle or two to spare...he could have dropped them easily enough into the Crack of doom..or were that inactive for any reason at this date... into the deeps of the Sea..

Whilst i like, and to some degree, agree with the theory about these swords and their art, runes and possibly even the knowledge of the WK's actual name... (a long ago Theory of Gor's as i recall) that may have made them unique -

I doubt the WK deliberetley set Wights here to specifically Guard those Swords -

IF we agree that they were so bound with mortal danger to him -and HE KNEW where they were - i suspect he would have had them destroyed.

Rather i think he hedged his bets and setthe Wights as an added protection / influence in the area - rather than SPECIFICALLY to Guard them

-

As to Faramir, Boromir II, Aragorn etc - i also concur more with Alcuin than GOR - not many Could withstand the Nine - but some could -

and i think it clear Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn all could - regardless the fact that by the Anduin they had to flee when all else had fled or died -

Yet, i think Zilbanne makes a good aside in that the nature of courage and Resolve is different, if slowly aroused in Hobbits -

call it almost a simplicity of the Soul - that can cut through all else when roused - almost a parable to Tom Bombadil -

Could he resist the Nine and the Power of Mordor?... Only if that Power were in the Very Earth itself...

I think the Hobbits are more Earthy than Man, and not blessed with great strength, height, eyesight, Magic or Wisdom - they have in part almost a Wholeness of Fea that whilst not indominitable by any means - certainly has at core, almost a Hidden Mithril-like Resistance...

In them perhaps was some of that Earthiness - in essence and when really needed aroused - was something hard to corrupt, or break - or daunt or bend - for it was founded, rooted, deep deep into the foundations almost of nature itself... and that of the Good pure steadfast Earth..Not of Fire, or Air, or of Water.

[Jon S.]

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!

[Zilbanne]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!

Truly Jon! And I like that here at Entmoot people can be friendly and still hold many different points of view!

[Attalus]

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

Unbelievable - and what was the main difference in opinion? That Merry was more important that Eowyn?

[Attalus]

Basically, that it was Merrry's blow that did in the W-K and that Eowyn's blow was superfluous, as he had already been killed by Merry. We even went into the deep meaning of "knit his unseen sinews to his will", which to me means that the W-K was paralysed, temporarily, most likely, and that it was Eowyn's blow that finally sent him wailing back to Sauron. But, let me warn you, other views exist.

[Attalus]

Hmmm, good point. I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. Michael Martinez once wrote a highly enlightenening essay on the components of Middle-earth magic: there was a somatic component, e.g. stabbing the W-K, laying the blade over the hobbits' neck, grasping the door in Moria, followed by a verbalcomponent, exemplified by the Wight's curse and the "counterspell" of the Balrog, of which we know little. In this case, the verbal component would be Eowyn's defiance, followed by the somatic component of Merry's stabbling of the W-K, ended by Eowyn's blow. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think the implication was that they were placed in some sort of "seat of seeing" like Morgoth put Hurin in, or like Amon Hen, though I've never read such a thing, either.

[Gordis]

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stab with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stub with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft.

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft.

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences.

Movie MOS?

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You are the nicest Elf I know. And coming from a nazgul it is a big compliment.

Thanks! And you are my favourite Nazgûl.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

No, you weren't rude or pushy or anything! Just proved that you're an Elf: "Errare Eldarum est." I didn't get upset, don't worry.

Yeay! No worries!

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith.

I don't recall having read this sort of story either. I would follow Gordis' conclusion that this was fanfiction.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Movie MOS?

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.

No. not movie MoS. Our personal picture of him. Honestly, Gor, you think I'm still that movie worshipping semifan I used to be?

I guess I should do as advised... though my pride keeps getting on the way. However, I do always try to make myself clear, be it consciously or not.

The reason why I said "lead stuff" was because I try to speak so that there's nothing more to my sentences except what they clearly say.

[Alcuin]

Thank you, Gordis, for the quote. I had not the time (nor inclination, after long days and nights in the Núrnen salt-mines) to look it up.

Had Aragorn and Narsil, a Blade, mark you, that merely shattered at the cutting of the One from Sauron's finger back in the day..and reforged with spells and runes to counter his Evil

Narsil did not shatter cutting the One Ring from Sauron’s hand. It broke beneath Elendil when he fell in the final battle with Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin. Tolkien’s description of the battle seems to indicate that Sauron was cornered on the slopes of the volcano by a sortie led by Gil-galad and Elendil supported by CÃ*rdan, Elrond, and Isildur. I would assume that he was attempting to make his way to the Sammath Naur, the Chamber of Fire, where the Ring was forged and where Gollum later fell to his death clutching the Ring after biting it from Frodo’s hand. (Sammath Naur seems to be the very center of Sauron’s power, the place where he diverted the power of the volcano to his purposes, including forging the One Ring.) Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron in hand-to-hand combat; Elendil was slain, fell upon his blade, and it broke beneath him; Gil-galad skewered Sauron with his spear, Aiglos, but was burned so badly by the heat from Sauron’s body that he died. (In having a black and burning body after reconstituting himself following the ruin of Númenor, Sauron resembles traditional demons of literature and religious myth and also The Balrog of Moria.) Sauron’s physical form was so seriously damaged by Gil-galad and Elendil, however, that it was unable to maintain a housing for his spirit (cf. the damage to Gandalf after his fight with the Balrog, or the fate of the Balrog itself), and his spirit was unable to maintain itself there: it disassociated from the physical form that Sauron had built up in the same way that the fëa and hröa of incarnates are dissociated when they die. Isildur, taking the hiltshard of Narsil – the part with the handle – cut Sauron’s finger with the Ring on it from his hand in much the same way that Gollum bit Frodo’s finger bearing the Ring from his hand. CÃ*rdan and Elrond begged him to throw the Ring into the lava, but its malicious power began to work immediately on Isildur, who kept it “‘as weregild [death payment] for my father, and my brother.’â€� Elendil was eventually entombed atop the hill that the Rohirrim later called the Halifirien in Firien Wood; what became of Gil-galad’s body is not said, but it is possible that it was entirely consumed. An interesting question is what became of the rest of Sauron’s corpse, as there must surely have been one, since Isildur cut the Ring from it.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Interesting take, Gordis. I think we may need a new thread: Who Really Killed Sauron in the Last Alliance?

Seems to me a lot of readers feel that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron's body and then Isildur cut off The Ring, and a lot of other readers feel that Sauron was still alive when Isildur cut off The Ring.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer since much depends on interpretation of the quotes already given.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Interesting take, Gordis. I think we may need a new thread: Who Really Killed Sauron in the Last Alliance?

Seems to me a lot of readers feel that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron's body and then Isildur cut off The Ring, and a lot of other readers feel that Sauron was still alive when Isildur cut off The Ring.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer since much depends on interpretation of the quotes already given.

I don't think the difference is that great, DPR. Anyway Sauron was already down, barely alive and offered no resistance to Isildur's blow. It definitely didn't happen the way it was shown in the movie.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?

Yep.

Sorry that I always jump into conclusions, but I do believe that they felt rather lost 1 and vengeful 2, not to mention fatigued3.(?) 1 2 3