10-06-2006, 12:48 PM | #721 | |||||
Elf Lord
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I agree that we should take measures to stop people making the choice to abort. That doesn't mean abortion itself should be an option. Quote:
I've heard of other situations where US troops since the invasion have risked their lives to protect civilians, enduring the risk of being shot at from a house by the enemy until the last possible moment to ensure that they don't make a mistake and kill civilians. We do lay down lives for them. Sometimes, when they're used as human shields, there is just no choice but to kill them. Anyway, war is like the justice system and medical care in that we know sometimes we will accidentally kill innocents, but we do our utmost to avoid killing them. Sometimes in the past, our technology level has been low enough that we just haven't had any chance of protecting civilians, because trying to protect them would mean massive casualty rates among ourselves. That also is understandable- the civilians are still being accidentally, rather than purposely killed. It's just that our ability to avoid killing them was much lower. If you are going to argue that war justifies killing innocents, you'd have to also say that medical care (which assumes we will accidentally kill people at times) and our justice system (which does the same) also justify abortion. Yet this is absurd, for in none of these cases do we PURPOSELY kill people. We do our utmost, whatever our level of ability is, to avoid it in ethically carried out wars. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-06-2006, 12:51 PM | #722 | |
Elf Lord
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I'm going to actually pull out of this thread now, because of time constraints. I'll be back later on, no doubt .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-06-2006, 01:23 PM | #723 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-06-2006, 01:30 PM | #724 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Comparing it to crime is apples and oranges. Why? Because 99.9% of people agree that murdering another adult is wrong. But no where near that many even see abortion as murder. If you make something a law that a very large portion of the population disagree with, it simply will not work in practice. Instead, you have to try to work to change the demand side of the equation so that people will not want to get abortions anymore.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-06-2006, 02:18 PM | #725 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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10-06-2006, 02:28 PM | #726 | |
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From the Guttmacher Institute:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-06-2006, 02:48 PM | #727 | ||||||
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No worries Lief!
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The foetus is part of the mother's body because it exists inside the womb and is also attached by the umbilical cord. So to recap what I meant about personhood and foetuses: 1. To be a person, one must have human DNA ie. be a human being. 2. To be a person, one must be a single entity. This includes possessing your own mind, and not being part of anyone else's body. Foetuses do possess human DNA and their own minds, but they live inside the mother's womb. Being encased in the womb and fed via the umbilical cord makes the foetus part of her body. I see it as say, the liver, which is inside your body and fed via numerous blood vessels. The umbilical cord pumps the mother's blood into the foetus, as blood vessels feed your liver. Living inside the womb, and not the presence of human DNA, is what makes a foetus part of the mother's body. The reason conjoined twins are two different people is because they share some body parts. One is not part of the other's body, neither are they inside someone else's body (like they were before they were born). Quote:
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(Of course having DNA leading to being part of the mother's body makes no sense at all.) Quote:
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10-06-2006, 03:02 PM | #728 | |||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm thinking you misunderstood me, as you said: Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 10-06-2006 at 03:03 PM. |
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10-06-2006, 03:42 PM | #729 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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You simply can't legislate against something that is so 50/50. It's like alcohol prohabition in the 20s. It won't work longterm and will cause more trouble than it is worth. When you want to control something that a substantial portion of the population does not perceive as wrong, you have to work in other ways than banning to change. The best way is to provide more desireable alternatives.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-06-2006, 03:47 PM | #730 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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How many women might decide not to abort if they knew that they could still go to college and have their baby cared for at the same time? No doubt, it would cost taxpayers money, but those would be some tax dollars I'd be happy to spend.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-06-2006, 05:15 PM | #731 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-06-2006, 05:17 PM | #732 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-06-2006, 05:54 PM | #733 | |||||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Wars are far from your perfect little justified life or death struggle Lief… You’ve been watching a lot of John Wayne movies haven’t you… Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-06-2006, 06:43 PM | #734 | ||
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-07-2006, 03:33 PM | #735 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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On copyrights, that has more to do with the fact that the rich benefit from copyrights, are major contributors in any politician's campaign, and thus get what they want. I think copyright law should be vastly restricted, and I think a majority would agree if they thought deeply about it, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Bottom line: the only laws that work well are the laws that at least 70-80% of the voting population agree with as good laws.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-07-2006, 03:50 PM | #736 | ||||||||
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I see the pouch as parental care, however, the only species that really matters in an abortion debate is humans. Otherwise we might start debating the ethics of spaying and neutering as it is forced sterilisation. Quote:
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At what point do you feel the developing human becomes a person? Why do you feel its a person at that point, rather than a different point of development? Quote:
I am not suggesting that the liver would become a person upon removal from the body. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-07-2006, 05:01 PM | #737 | |||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm bringing this up, because I don't see what is the substantial difference that makes the foetus part of the mother, but not the joey. Quote:
As stated before, Siamese twins are much more connected than mother and infant. Note especially that pair in their twins, which are essentially one body with two heads. But they are clearly separate entities. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-08-2006, 04:54 AM | #738 | |||||||||||
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I feel the usefulness of the joey comparison has exhausted itself. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-08-2006, 07:40 PM | #739 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Why are women who have very early miscarriages so sad?
And Nurv, did you ever share your thoughts on partial birth abortion? (maybe I missed it... I've been kind of hit and miss here)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-08-2006, 09:59 PM | #740 | ||||
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Plus, they could be affected by post-partum depression. (I believe this can affect women who give birth to healthy babies, women who have abortions, and women who have miscarriages, cam all experience post-partum depression.) Mainly, though, because having a miscarriage at any stage is an awful experience. There are many psychological and physical reason why a woman would feel depressed after a miscarriage (at any stage) and I hesitate to generalise further than I already have. It should be acknowledged that having an abortion is also an awful experience. Quote:
I'm still thinking about it, though I am starting to formulate ideas.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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