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#661 | |
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#662 | |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
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Of possible interest, it might be noted that Tarcil appears as a name in the Northern Line -- and that tark 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent.
Expert David Salo offers a few general remarks: Quote:
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#663 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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![]() [QUOTE]Originally posted by cian
[B]Of possible interest, it might be noted that Tarcil appears as a name in the Northern Line -- and that tark 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent. Interesting... both that a King of Arnor would have a name based on 'Man of Gondor'... unless 'tark' had dual useage. (?) Or maybe King Tarcil had some other Gondorian connection (unless you're saying his name came from the Quenya 'tarkil' - I'd guess you are, come to think of it, since he was among those Kings of Arnor who still took Quenya names... and I know JRRT used that spelling (Tarkil) for the King in his earlier versions, as shown in PoME). Also - I recall the orcs who captured Frodo referring to a 'tark'... I hadn't known what that was before. ![]()
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#664 |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
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Right, currently at Ardalambion Helge offers Tarcil 'High-man'. The word tarcil was adopted into Westron, used to refer to a person of N. descent. The debased form tark came to refer to a 'man of Gondor'.
David Salo suggests Tar-khild-, and note Elvish root KHIL- 'follow' and the form hildi 'followers = mortal men'. David offers tarkil as 'high man' or 'royal man'. ¤ Last edited by cian : 03-17-2004 at 08:50 AM. |
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#665 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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![]() Interesting still...
In the same general vein, at some point, a light bulb came on and I noticed the similarity between: Ithil (for Minas Ithil and Ithilien) and Isil of Isildur (who built Minas Ithil and ruled in Ithilien) and Anor (for Minas Anor and Anorien) and Anar of Anarion (who of course, built Minas Anor and ruled in Anorien). Now, I know that ithil = moon and anor = sun... I take it that the "Isil..." and "Anar..." are either derived from those or vice-versa... correct? Is it the former? Are the names of Elendil's two sons Quenya, as the other High Kings at Arnor and Kings of Gondor... or are those two names alone Sindarin?
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#666 | |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
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Isildur and Anárion are Quenya, meaning 'Moon-servant' and probably 'Sun-son'. David Salo comments, on the names, citing from Tolkien first:
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#667 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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![]() Yes, but I was wondering about the transference of the 'th' in Ithil to 's' in Isil... and the second 'a' in 'Anar' to the 'o' in 'Anor'... or is there no significance whatsoever?
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#668 |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
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We're looking at two different languages here, both of which hail from a common ancestor language. Sindarin Anor for example, arguably hails from older *anár > *anaur > anor. Anárion is Quenya, but Minas Anor is Sindarin, and so also the place-names Anórien and Ithilien (Quenya Isil).
Helge Fauskanger also explains: "the relevant root is NAR (#1), meaning "flame, fire". The primitive word anár- prefixes the stem-vowel, producing a kind of "intensive" form. So anár- etymologically refers to some kind of "great flame". This produces Quenya Anar and Sindarin Anor (for older Anaur)." ¤ |
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#669 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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![]() Quote:
![]() Seriously, thank you. That addresses what I was trying to ask... so I now see that the 'isil' and 'anar' from the personal names are Quenya and the 'ithil' and 'anor' from the place names are Sindarin... I just didn't know which was which. ![]()
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#670 |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
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Well, Ruinel, I am here, and I do need help, so if you would, please, help
![]() ![]() Oh, and do you speak Quenya or Sindarin? And does it matter (I believe it does, however I am not well versed in any language skills, other than speaking English, and a little Deutsch)?
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Well, there it is. |
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#671 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
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Quetin Quenya lambe.
(I speak Quenya tongue.) You should start by going to Ardalambion.com find the "course" link and go through it, it will be long, but worth it. There are wordlists also, those will help. But without knowing how to pluralize something or put words together, they won't be of much help. |
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#672 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
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This thread is growing... this is good.
![]() Do either Cian or Valandil speak Elvish? |
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#673 |
Her Infernal Majesty
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,188
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Hey Runiel - since your being all nice and helping Beor to learn Elvish, do you feel like taking on another eager student?
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#674 |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
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I'm not sure this is the right thread to ask this in, but could someone please answer my question? I'd be very happy.
![]() What is 'The Wise' in Quenya (and Sindarin)? Thank you. ![]()
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#675 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 123
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I think it is " I saira" (or saila it's the same thing they are both used) but you may not use the article ( to give emphasis) " Saira"
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#676 |
Mirthful Maiden
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 1,252
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Ok, does anyone know the Elvish word for "hello"? I was told that it is "veldui", but I've been wondering if that is true. If looked in Elvish translation books and a few other places, but there is no mention of the word "hello".
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#677 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Posts: 2,870
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'Vedui' means 'greetings' if I'm not much mistaken (Sindarin's never been my field anyway
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#678 |
Mirthful Maiden
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rivendell
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ok good!
thanks Falagar ![]()
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#679 | |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
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Vedui is much more likely to be a mutated form of medui meaning 'last' (note Arvedui).
The 'Grey Company Elven' roleplayers (who do not accurately represent Tolkien's Elvish languages) may use it for 'greetings', apparently because the word appears within a greeting. Note the current commentary from Ardalambion: 'Glorfindel's greeting to Aragorn: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! (LotR1/I ch. 12). The first words are not translated, but probably mean *"Ah, at last, Westman!" Mae govannen means "well met" (Letters:308).' ~Helge Fauskanger And commentary from expert David Salo: Quote:
Last edited by cian : 04-13-2004 at 10:12 AM. |
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#680 |
Mirthful Maiden
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 1,252
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hmm what book would I be able to find this out from?
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