What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, but I think that Sauron suspected that is it did move from lorien it would move south eastward towards Gondor, not back to Rivendell. As I said before a Nazgûl hovering on his Fell Beast over Lorien for a month would have had it's Fell Beast shot almost immediatly.

[Gordis]

My point was that Sauron believed there would be no move out of Lorien at all. Why would he ever think Galadriel capable of sending the Ring to Minas Tirith? Whould she give it to a man to wield? To Denethor? No way! and Sauron was right. He never suspected that they had decided to destroy the ring. So he did not send a nazgul either to hover over Lorien (actually I never suggested that!), or to hide on the east bank for all eternity. How do you picture it? The Fell beast needed to eat and be tended and so on... And the nazgul? Orcs would have laughed at him hiding in bushes alongside them. And what for? Nazgul do not see well, and sensing the ring or smelling it from the other bank is impossible. The river is a barrier to Ring perception, it is clearly stated. So of course Khamul was in Dol Guldur ruling it, and was fetched by orcs on emergency.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think Sauron was going to take any chances, he had waited long anough to regain the Ring, I don't think he was going to let it get away from him becaus ehe didn't post a Nazgûl outside Lorien when he easily could have done.

[Gordis]

Well, TD, the Ring DID get away from him. If there were a nazgul watching over Lorien borders, then, upon spotting the fellowships departure, he would have flown directly to Sauron and all the nine nazgul and a lot of troops would have been waiting for them on both shores. That would be the end of the quest.
The fellowship made it to Part Galen in nine days. In nine days a nazgul had time to fly to Mordor and many thousand of orcs march to Rauros. No, the enemy acted so weakly at Part Galen because all this came as a surprise for them.

[Gordis]

By the way, about Saruman. Unlike Sauron, he must have made an educated guess about the quest's goal. He was a member of the White Counsil, so he must have heard Elrond and Gandalf exclaim: "What a pity the ring was not destroyed ages ago.." So he was prepared and watched the fellowship progress with the help of birds and his Palantir. But he has not warned Sauron, but instead sent about 80 orcs to Part Galen.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it helped that he also knew Galadriel. He knew she was noble and would not except the Ring for herself just as Gandalf did.
A side question. Why were orcs from Barad-Dûr there aswell if Sauron didn't think about any move from Lorien?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

A side question. Why were orcs from Barad-Dûr there aswell if Sauron didn't think about any move from Lorien?

First of all, IMHO, you cannot tell the orcs from Dol Guldur from those of Barad Dur as they must have had the same sigil of the Red Eye. Dol-Guldur was filled with Mordor orcs sent there since 2951. Only Morgul orcs had another sigil, traditionally, as the place existed 1000 years without Sauron.

However, Grishnakh's orcs really must have been from Mordor. But they were too few for a company specially sent by Sauron in order to capture the ring . I think they were guarding the East bank near Rauros, or the main South-North road on the Eastern bank. This spot is closer to Morannon than to Dol Guldur. Khamul must have mustered them and sent over the river. I think he gave Grishnakh some hints about the Ring, as Sauron himself was paranoid and never told anybody but the nazgul about it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It says in one of the Appendices that Grishnakh was the Captain of the orcs of Barad-Dûr. I think he got the hints about the Ring because he was part of the 'Let's all torture Gollum' party.

[Butterbeer]

I think its clear Saruman wanted to become a power and to obtain the One: equally clear to me is that only one (as Gandalf states) can wield the One: and for all that Saruman says to gandalf earlier when he reveals he is Suruman of many colours etc regarding "joining with powers arising in the east): equally clear to me is that Saruman would rather in the end see it destroyed and take his luck in the Post ring world than see Sauron regain his power and become at best a lackey or quite possibly enslaved or tortured by Sauron as and when he (SAU) has the time and with the power of the Ring he delves a little bit further into Saruman's mind and examines his thoughts and motives!

for example:
why did you not mention - indeed Must have worked very hard to shield from me the thought that there was indeed a chance or even a high probability they would attempt to destroy the ring - and hence also destroy your "great buddy and ally" sauron!!)


"Eye Eye!" he'd a said with an evil grin ...

Therefore i agree Saruman must have considered the possibility of them atempting to destroy the ring and no matter how much credibility he may have given the thought NEVER mentioned it (indeed as a i said before MUST have concentrated hard to not reveal it!) even when in trouble after sauron finds out he has tried to get the Hobbits, his Orcs had over-ruled Sau's orcs and that he was no longer communicating in the palantir ... i.e he is in trouble with Mordor, looking like the traitor he is.
(he could have told the visiting nazgul even without the Palantir.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the mere fact that it was a hobbit weilding the Ring not a powerful warrior was enough to think that there was a very good chance that it was going to be destroyed. What would be the point in having a Hobbit weilding the Ring when Gandalf could?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Therefore i agree Saruman must have considered the possibility of them atempting to destroy the ring and no matter how much credibility he may have given the thought NEVER mentioned it (indeed as a i said before MUST have concentrated hard to not reveal it!) even when in trouble after sauron finds out he has tried to get the Hobbits, his Orcs had over-ruled Sau's orcs and that he was no longer communicating in the palantir ... i.e he is in trouble with Mordor, looking like the traitor he is.(he could have told the visiting nazgul even without the Palantir.

Definitely Saruman was in BIG trouble with Mordor. Apart from what you mentioned, Butterbeer, it is clear from the Hunt for the Ring (UT) that already in September 3018 Saruman tried to conceal from the nazgul his knowledge about the Shire location. The nazgul learned of his treachery even before they came to the Shire. Sauron learned of it as soon as the first nazgul returned to Barad Dur, sometime in late October-November 3018. So before the capture of the hobbits Saruman was already in trouble with Mordor, but didn't know about it. After he had failed to get the Ring he had no excuses to offer Sauron at all. The sensible thing for him would have been to repent, as Gandalf offered, but his pride won.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

for example: why did you not mention - indeed Must have worked very hard to shield from me the thought that there was indeed a chance or even a high probability they would attempt to destroy the ring - and hence also destroy your "great buddy and ally" sauron!!)
"Eye Eye!" he'd a said with an evil grin ...

Actually isn't it funny, that Sau has failed to guess the Quest's goal? Not too smart he was IMHO and too confident in his power.
He believed that through the Palantir he could easily read ALL of Saruman's thoughts. But no, there were very important matters Saruman was able to conceal. On the other hand Sauron hardly asked him directly about Galadriel's plans, in the way Butterbeer has visualized above.

The same with Pippin. If Sauron were able to see ALL of his mind, the quest would have been doomed. If Sauron asked him directly: What are you going to do with the ring? - he would have told about Orodruin. Instead Sauron asked only: Who are you? -a wrong question.

The same with the nazgul, IMHO. Sauron believed that having the Nine rings and equipped with the Eye, he could read ALL of the nazgul minds, and he was right to an extent, but there still remained a possibility for them to shield some thoughts from him.
My take on the matter is this: If Sauron after Gollum's revelations had put the Witch-King's ring on and fixed him with the Eye and asked him directly: "And now, Witchy, my darling, tell me where IS the Shire?" the Witch-King would have been compelled to tell him. But as Sauron hadn't suspected that the WK knew about the Shire's location from his time in Angmar, he didn't ask directly. And that was a BIG mistake. Because after having lied (by omission to venture the info), the WK and the other 8 became most interested NOT to let Sauron have the Ring, because otherwise they would have to answer for all the lies and omissions as well.

[Olmer]

You have some worthy of note points in your disagreements, but I want to stress one angle on Sauron's attitude towards the Ring.
As I was previously saying , Sauron's aim was not to get the Ring, but to MOVE the Ring within the grasp of Elves. Nazgul did their job, driving the Ring with the ringbearer out of the hiding place and towards elve's domains.

He wouldn't send the troops into Lorien, because he EXPECTED the arrival of the Ring into Galadriel's grasp. He did not need to ask about Galadriel’s plans. He KNOWS them; upon their frequent meetings in Eregion he happened to know her pretty close, he know about her pride, arrogance and hunger of power.
As a matter of fact, as I suggested before, this ring was made by him, having particularly Galadriel in mind.One little episode kind of confirmed my suggestion.When Pippin looked in palantir and saw Sauron, who thought that the Ring is in Orthank. What did the Dark Lord do? He was laughing! What is so funny in the situation when somebody has taken your life-sustaining device? It's equal to if you badly needed a heart transplant, and somebody just took this donated to you organ. Will it be a laughing matter? I don't think so!
Why Sauron found this situation humorous? Because he is saying “Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him!” (TTT,”The Palantir”) He is not saying “It is mine, belongs to me”, he is telling him that the Ring was intended for somebody else use, but not for Saruman.
Another point is in the word “dainty”- it means “a small exquisite thing”, but this word is commonly used when we are talking about women little trinkets:rings, charms, earrings and etc.
Certainly, it will be amusing to imagine the old, gray and quite no-nonsense man is trying to fit on something which belongs to woman. I quite agree with Sauron’s viewpoint.

But Galadriel wouldn’t be called the smartest elf in ME for nothing ! She perceived his plan and she contradict it with her cunning “design”.She let the Ring out of Lorien, just to stage it disappearance later. But her plan backfired too. Because of Boromir, Frodo put the ring too soon and disappeared. From this moment both of them, Sauron and Galadriel, have lost control of the situation.Galadriel had nothing to do, but “to go with the flow” and Sauron, being busy with war preparation, completely lost the track of the Ring.

[Butterbeer]

very interesting Olmer

my take on the palantir and Pippin scene and with regard to the Dainty was that Sauron was reffering to the Hobbit he perceived captured by Saruman and at Orthanc being forced to look into the stone for amusement etc NOT that Saruman had obtained the One!

this explains what he finds amusing and why he laughs and thinks "its in the bag" rather than being clever and pressing the Hobbit there and then

I'm very interested to know more why you propose that Sauron wanted to ensare galadriel with the ring? (as opposed to getting his hands on it)
Would he then be able to control the three and their users? We know galadriel was wearing her ring by the Fountain and was actively using it to maintain Lorien ...

surely though Saruman with the ring would be a potentially dangerous opponent? (esp within Orthanc) given enough time? Saruman seems to beleive this at least as does gandalf (unless we accept the various arguments that gandalf deliberately wanted to go via Moria etc)

personally i like the idea that the Nazgul were as far as possible self-serving and the WK in particular not un-ambitious:
though for me the major problem with this is IF the WK and the nine in general were not being 100% in their search for the ring for Sauron etc: why did not the Witch King desire to get hold of the One itself and for himself?: what is stopping him being all conquering?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Olmer, I personally completley disagree with you, but there is one quote which supports what you are saying.
When Frodo asks Galadriel what she wishes will happen she replies
"I wish that whatever shall be, shall be."
This could either imply that she loves her Ring that she would sacrifce ME's peace for it or that she wishes the Ring for herself.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

As I was previously saying , Sauron's aim was not to get the Ring, but to MOVE the Ring within the grasp of Elves. Nazgul did their job, driving the Ring with the ringbearer out of the hiding place and towards elve's domains. As a matter of fact, as I suggested before, this ring was made by him, having particularly Galadriel in mind.One little episode kind of confirmed my suggestion. When Pippin looked in palantir and saw Sauron, who thought that the Ring is in Orthank. What did the Dark Lord do? He was laughing! …Another point is in the word “dainty”-
…Frodo put the ring too soon and disappeared. From this moment both of them, Sauron and Galadriel, have lost control of the situation .Galadriel had nothing to do, but “to go with the flow” and Sauron, being busy with war preparation, completely lost the track of the Ring.

Hi, Olmer, here you are again with your "The One as a wedding ring" concept .

As far as I remember the main facts to support it were:

1. The nazgul acted strangely during the hunt for the Ring, as if they didn't want to get the Ring at all
2. Sauron has sent 40 orcs and no nazgul to Part Galen while Saurman sent 80 orcs.
3 "dainty" + Saurons's cheery mood when he met Pippin in the Palantir -see above

As for 2, I have tried to show in my previous posts how the Part Galen events must have looked from Sauron's and nazgul POV. Sauron was caught by surprise, not expecting any move out of Lorien, rather then sending a weak orc company deliberately.

As for 3, I agree with Butterbeer that "dainty" referred to Pippin not to the Ring. Gandalf explained the incident to Pippin: "He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly" I think now, upon rereading Gandalf's explanations of the palantir incident, that Sauron never believed Saruman has got the Ring.

Now for the 1. I agree with you that the nazgul's actions look suspicious during the hunt for the Ring (UT) and during the hunt in the Shire and down to the Bruinen ford. But I believe that they were self-serving, concealing matters from Sauron, rather than acted in this way on his orders.
You state yourself that from the moment of Part Galen Sauron lost control of the situation. But then wouldn't he send the nazgul to search for the Ring in earnest? But no, the nazgul acted in the same strange way when the Ring was on the East bank moving towards Mordor, even when it was in Mordor itself! Anybody knowing the Ring was already in Mordor, could guess the goal of the quest . So Sauron couldn't know of it, while the nazgul DID know of it, at least they traced it to the Morgul vale and Ungol Pass. (see my previous post). But destroying the Ring suited their plans (if not Sauron's ) so they continued their "game".

So, sorry, Olmer, your Sauron-not-wanting the Ring concept doesn't seem plausible to me.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

personally i like the idea that the Nazgul were as far as possible self-serving and the WK in particular not un-ambitious:
though for me the major problem with this is IF the WK and the nine in general were not being 100% in their search for the ring for Sauron etc: why did not the Witch King desire to get hold of the One itself and for himself?: what is stopping him being all conquering?

What is stopping the WK? IMHO, his profound understanding of the ring-scheme and mechanism, as well as his realistic estimate of Sauron's power. The Witch-King was very clever and not at all cheeky or overconfident. He always avoided unnecessary and dangerous confrontations (like with Glorfindel).

The WK was fully aware of Sauron's inherent power and had not tried to confront him directly even when the Necromancer had no rings, while the WK most probably still had his own and all the military power of Angmar at his back.

Tolkien is quite definite that, in a confrontation, pretty much anyone would have handed Sauron the ring at once: "In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn." (Letter #246). The WK was a powerful immortal being, but he was at a greatest disadvantage in such a confrontation as he was enslaved to his own Ring which Sauron himself held. ("through their nine rings(which he held) [Sauron] had primary control of their wills..." (Letter #246)

Sauron sending the Nazgul for the Ring was confident that: "if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master" (UT) I think Sauron had reasons to believe that and was right. Not only because of the Nine he held, but also because of the will of the One Ring to return to its Master. The Ring was possibly more powerful in itself than Sauron was. It had a mind of its own. It surely had control over the Ringless nazgul. "Precious is their Master" says Gollum.
Because of all of this the nazgul avoided at all coasts to approach the Ring or to take physical possession of it. I believe they could not even throw the Ring into Orodruin, much less wield it against Sauron. Otherwise why didn't the WK grab Frodo at Weathertop, ring and all? Why didn't he cut the ring from his finger?

Now about the Eye. Doubtless the nazgul keenly felt the Eye when it was directed at them. So IMHO when Sauron was not watching them, they did nothing, and while he was looking, they sprang into action like at Weathertop or at the Ford.

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=gordis]
The WK was a powerful immortal being, but he was at a greatest disadvantage in such a confrontation as he was enslaved to his own Ring which Sauron himself held. ("through their nine rings(which he held) [Sauron] had primary control of their wills..." (Letter #246)




But surely if the WK had had the one and was not immediately in the presence of Sauron: in fact was in the North so it would take time for sauron to attempt to overwhelm him in conventional terms: if he had the One: surely then the nine would obey their new master (the One) my question is IMO the Wk would have been able-enough to eventually master the One and therefore control ther Nine and not the other way round?

Wether he would have had time to do this i'm not sure: but god help any ammisaries or Orcs that Sauron sends to apprehend the Witch King wielding the One! Sauron himself would have had to get out the Jacuuzi himself for once and venture North me thinks.

Could not the WK wielding the One have negated the effect of the Nine? You state ( i think?) that the greater store of power is in the ring itself: we know the WK is sufficently powerful and willful to attempt to master the ring: my point is IF he did, he'd be hard to stop!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Could not the WK wielding the One have negated the effect of the Nine? You state ( i think?) that the greater store of power is in the ring itself: we know the WK is sufficently powerful and willful to attempt to master the ring: my point is IF he did, he'd be hard to stop!

No, Butterbeer, I am afraid you are wrong. The WK would have been VERY EASY to stop. Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

And I think that even "IF" was impossible. I am doubtful that the WK would have been able to master the One without his own ring. Without their rings, the nazgul were "incomplete", part of their power contained in the 9 Rings. Far away from the rings they were much weaker. And I doubt that even the possession of the One could have shielded the WK from the primary control of his nazgul ring.

Anyway, Sauron (who knew all about the Rings) has preferred sending the Ringwraiths to the Shire instead of sending any mortals, even very loyal mortals (Mouth etc.). Therefore he believed that the WK was an impossible candidate for the new Ringlord.

IMO, the minute Sauron took the 9 rings from the nazgul, they lost all hope to ever be free in ME. They could not even die, as long as the 9 existed and had power. Therefore they tried hard to escape beyond by "helping" to destroy the One.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you Gordis, but this does bring up another question. What happened to the WK after he was stabbed by Eowyn? He could not have been killed as only the destruction of the One or his one of the Nine could do that. Did he return to Mordor with no power , shapeless and lifeless?

[Gordis]

Yes I believe you are right, TD. As far as I remember, Tolkien has written somewhere in the Letters that the WK was "rendered powerless" or something like that, not dead and gone. So I think, that after being stabbed by Eowyn, the WK has become not the "undead" (a spirit+invisible body) but just spirit without any interaction with the physical world. His spirit, however could not leave the ME being bound to his ring. Perhaps his spirit returned to Mordor, perhaps not, but it is not that important, as in 10 days the Ring was destroyed, the 9 rings lost their power and the nazgul were at last free to leave ME and go beyond.

Isn't it ironic that the ringwraiths were perhaps the only children of Illuvatar to finally see death as a Gift?