01-30-2005, 04:46 PM | #41 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-30-2005, 05:08 PM | #42 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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Woops almost forgot this one.
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Furthermore… do you understand the difference between pointing out an undeniable ironic point and saying religious people shouldn’t be allowed to vote “for the person who held their beliefs”? Once again if you don’t…. just let me know… Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-30-2005, 05:41 PM | #43 | |
The Blobbit
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The turnout at these elections is roughly 60%. The official turnout in the 2001 UK General Election was...
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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01-30-2005, 05:52 PM | #44 | ||
The Intermittent One
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01-30-2005, 06:03 PM | #45 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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IR I noticed you posted - but I'm not even going to waste my time reading your crap here. It's probably the same old **** - just different words. I have better things to do a the moment. Anyway - this thread is about the IRAQI elections - not the US ones. It's also not about what you think of me - or a demonstration of how many names you can call me.
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01-30-2005, 08:27 PM | #46 |
avocatus diaboli
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I didn't read all that many names, JD.
All the same, I wish you two would stop attacking each other. What reasons are there to expect that democracy in itself will even work (in the long run) in Iraq?
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01-31-2005, 11:19 AM | #47 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As I said in the birthday thread - today we planted a seed - hopefully it will grow - but it will only grow if we stand by it's side and help it along. If we had powerful naysayers you hear today during 1776 - like Kennedy and others - the US would still be a a british colony. It took roughly 6 years (1775 - 1781) to fight the revolution - to win our freedom. It was then not even until 1787 that we even sat down to develop a Constitution and the government we have today. The Iraqis are trying to go from a brutal dictator to a democracy in less than 3 years. Our fight for independence and freedom was not easy - there were a lot of sacrifices made. No one should expect the road to democracy for the Iraqis to be easy - especially with having terrorists in their country who do not want democracy to flourish in the middle east. What the iraqis did yesterday by going to the polls was very similar to what our founding fathers did when they put their signatures on the declaration of independence. They knew perfectly well that if the revolution failed - they would be hanged for treason. As Benjamin Franklin said "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately". The founding fathers and the many men and women who fought in our revolution put their life on the line for a better life and for justice and freedom - just like the iraqis did yesterday. They did not cower down and put their hands in their pockets after voting - they celebrated and danced - they stuck the inked stained finger in the air in defiance of the terrorst threats. How many Americans today or Birtish or French would make these same sacrifices today just to vote The Iraqis stared down the terrorists and showed their lust for freedom by just taking the steps necessary to go to the polling booths - knowing that they could be shot and killed at any moment. It is the fact that they willingly put their life in their hands to do something that too much of the western world takes for granted - they voted - that is why I have faith that they will ultimately succeed as a democracy. of course a lot will be determined by what their constitution looks like and whether it makes sure that no one person ot group can wrest power again. This is only the first step toward democracy and is only the development of a temporary government. During 2005 they have to write their constitution and then in December they are scheduled to vote again for the final government officials.
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01-31-2005, 11:34 AM | #48 | |
avocatus diaboli
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We may have been the first in recent history to attempt such a thing, but don't forget about Greece and Rome. The fact remains that our government (assuming my history teachers weren't lying ) was based primarily on ideas from the Enlightenment, and not entirely foreign to ideas and philosophy that had existed before. Iraq and most if not all of the Middle East, however, never went through a time period with such a philosophy. So where is the foundation for democracy in the region? And secondly, we were lucky in our first presidents. Without someone like Washington, who can say what would have happened? As far as I know, he was incredibly widely supported in our country. Whoever has won/will win ( ) the Iraqi election, however, will likely not have such support. There are so many factions and different people running that I don't see even a majority of the population being happy. I also believe that the flaws of democracy (primarily the suppression of the minority by the majority... it's somewhere in the Federalist Papers... ) will likely be more prominent and noticeable in Iraq than in our own country. I could be, and hopefully am, wrong though.
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01-31-2005, 12:44 PM | #49 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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[edit]btw - Rome wasn't a democracy - it was a republic [/edit]
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01-31-2005, 02:29 PM | #50 | |
Quasi Evil
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So what Im wondering is I heard that something like 99% of the Kurds voted for independence on their ballots. what will happen with them? can they do that? or was that just a symbolic gesture? also what happens with the Suni population that couldnt vote or that were too intimidated to vote because of isnurgent threats. I hear in one city insurgants actually called up the police and threatened them and their family and the WHOLE police department resigned... AND the governor of the region had his home fire bombed and went into exhile. So of course the citzens of the region were terrified of voting and didnt. So the Suni representation in this election will undoubtedly be underrepresentative. Will this be worked out some how such that they get a minimum number of representatives anyway? so they arent completely disinfranchised by the process? what about capping the representation for each group by its population percentage? a sloppy way of doing it no doubt since lines are certainly not drawn that clearly over there. but what else could be done?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-31-2005, 03:01 PM | #51 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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I hope it doesn’t lead to sliced fingers or some other gross revenge by those murdering-thugs. Anyway, HORRAY for the Iraqi voters; that display of courage was an excellent baby-step towards independence and freedom.
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! Last edited by EarthBound : 01-31-2005 at 03:06 PM. |
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01-31-2005, 04:36 PM | #52 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I think they also dipped the fingers here. I know the Iraqi Ambassador to the US came on a ness program with his finger stained too. They did do the same thing during the Afganistan election - and they ran into problems at one place where the ink was able to come off. Quote:
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01-31-2005, 05:24 PM | #53 | |
The Intermittent One
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01-31-2005, 05:59 PM | #54 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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01-31-2005, 06:19 PM | #55 | ||||
avocatus diaboli
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I could easily claim that democracy failed in the US four (five now, I suppose) years ago. At the moment, I can just as easily say that not much more than 50% or 60% of our population is being accurately represented. But the second, at least, is inherent in democracy, I think. As is also written in the Federalist Papers , we're always going to disagree; that's part of human nature. I don't think that such a thing, at the moment at least, is overly dangerous in the US. I don't like Bush, but I don't think the world is going to end because he was reelected. Even if he was foolish enough to go declare war on the rest of the world - which I doubt - there are enough safegaurds to prevent him, I think. We've had 200 years to work things out. Like you said yourself: "The Iraqis are trying to go from a brutal dictator to a democracy in less than 3 years." I don't think that they have the same margin of error at the moment than we do. As a result, I am doubtful of the chances that this will work. Democracy is not unfallable, and I am pessemistic. Quote:
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So are we all friends again?
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01-31-2005, 06:55 PM | #56 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for Europe - europe took a long time to become democracies. The French revolution for all purposes was a failure - it did not have freedom after it. It brought about Napolean. The US however never went into a dictatorship or anything. Quote:
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01-31-2005, 07:22 PM | #57 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Yeah, we were lucky in our respective revolutions (to use the term a bit loosely in the case of Canada). The Russians got rid of the tsars, and got stuck with Stalin.
Iraq has pretty much been stuck with one dictator after another (since the fall of Sumarian and Babylonian civilizations)... until now. It really does seem like the nation as a whole have the will to make this work, even though there are people that will try to disrupt the process.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 01-31-2005 at 07:23 PM. Reason: clarity |
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01-31-2005, 10:50 PM | #58 | |
Quasi Evil
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Anyway... yeah the people of that region have been on the bad end of some lousy deals the past few hundred years maybe but for hundreds and hundreds of years this land was the height of civilization in a way that very few places have since matched if any. There is an ancient greatness in the blood and the soil of Iraq. Its been burried and tainted by the wages of repetitive crusades and the suffication of colonialism more so then by endless dictatorship in my opinion.
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02-01-2005, 12:17 AM | #59 | |||||
avocatus diaboli
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Also, I find it easier to just click on a link than to find and type in an address or to hunt down and rummage through a book... That could just be laziness and disorganisation, though... Quote:
I am not claiming that the Iraqis aren't smart enough to handling democracy. I am simply in doubt of democracy itself (and no, I am not a communist. ). Quote:
And even the fact that he won the electoral votes is disputed. Quote:
I wish you wouldn't take my comments the wrong way, JD. I know you have a greater knowledge of politics and history than I. I simply disagree with you on points, though I respect and admire both you and your opinions. I'm tired and I don't feel like fighting. Good night.
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Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 02-01-2005 at 02:41 AM. |
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02-01-2005, 08:05 AM | #60 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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I remember that Bush won Florida two of the three counts completed and was on his way to winning the third before the Supreme Court said, "Enough already". I take issue that our government is a "broken" entity. (Not your words, just my analysis of your stance) Funny how it took the state of Washington to complete three recounts before the Democratic Governor-ness had enough votes to win. That stuff bothers me no matter which party does it. I mean, how is anyone to feel good about that except the party that wins?!? No one can feel good about recounts that have possibly biased-counters redefining the votes. We need excellent voting machines that can be "checked" and "confirmed" on the counting. Standardized nationally; just so we can put this finger-pointing to rest after close elections. Remember JFK . . . Kennedy, lost the popular vote to Nixon, but won the electoral college . . . I don't recall there being such a big hullabaloo (it’s a word BoP! lol) with everyone going on and on and on about how the electoral college is failing us; concerning that election. I HATE all the quibbling and knee-biting that goes on when someone’s' party looses. (Getting off topic, sorry) IN FACT: I think it would be a good idea for Iraq to have an electoral college to help represent some of the factions that have a lesser population, but need adequate representation. I also think they need a new flag to UNITE under...just a thought.
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