09-09-2004, 02:38 AM | #41 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Quote:
Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-09-2004, 10:07 AM | #42 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 09-09-2004 at 10:12 AM. |
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09-09-2004, 10:11 AM | #43 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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__________________ But this is the interpretation of the bards of the Mark, not stated as an authority. Thanks for the quote, BTW.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-09-2004, 10:30 AM | #44 | |
Elf Lord
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Now comes the fun part:to stand by your words. Let's summarise. I'm saying that Wich King had no idea about prophecy, and his destruction , sensed by Glorfindel, was a combination of unlikely events. Fate. You are saying that the Witch King was somehow informed, like somebody told him:"Listen, brother, you can fight with men, but with any others will be too unhealthy for you". So ,if he was aware and doubtful, which makes him too human (my POV), then he had been trying to avoid an open confrontation with anybody, but men. Which brings us to the incident on the Weathertop. But by agreeing on that you basically accepting my POV that the Nazguls had a different reason besides being "scared off" by a lonely Ranger. We "changed chairs". What do you think? |
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09-09-2004, 11:19 AM | #45 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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By this time it had been over 1000 years since Glorfindel made his statement to Earnur. I suspect that in this time, this 'prophecy' of his was whispered among Men and Elves... and that eventually it trickled into the intelligence of the Dark forces... if at no other time, then certainly the Witch-King had a nice chance to torture it out of Earnur himself 75 years later - when Earnur went out to face him at Minas Morgul, despite those words, and was never heard from again. After learning this, I think the W-K would have been quite pleased with himself. In fact, he might have over-generalized the statement in his own mind... thinking that all of his opponents in this Third Age were Men, and thus that he was invincible. Then we come to March 15, 3019... the Pelennor. The W-K has quite a bit of confidence in his invincibility versus any who would oppose him. That day he faces a lone warrior, unhorsed - but still defiant. He finds it amusing at first and declares his invincibility... the inevitable defeat of this man he faces. But his opponent laughs at his declaration... and reveals that he is a she! So... this is a woman... NOT a man! His mind ran back to the old prophecy he knew... and he wondered if this was some loophole he had not expected... some cursed Elf Trick! And here... this very opponent, rather than being shaken by his reiteration of these words about his invincibility and his greatness... had drawn confidence even from those very words which were meant to inspire fear! Perhaps he had a vague feeling that something bad was about to happen...
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09-09-2004, 11:25 AM | #46 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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And his words echoed the prophecy. He wouldn't have known that no man man would/could kill him from a lucky guess. He obviously knew.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-09-2004, 03:33 PM | #47 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm guessing his last thought was something along the line of 'Uh-uh'.
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09-09-2004, 03:35 PM | #48 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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09-09-2004, 05:45 PM | #49 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Followed by, "Uh, oh, I can't move, and that damned woman has got her sword..."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-02-2008, 02:54 PM | #50 |
Elven Warrior
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It's interesting that characters in the story interpreted the prophecy in such a way as to include both a halfling and a woman, and I think this is intended by the author (meaning Tolkien here) as the path for the Reader to take.
I think JRRT is playing on the spoken word man, keeping in mind the obvious, that the prophecy was given in speech not writing. This leads me to further speculate that Glorfindel, in his mind's eye perhaps, did not necessarily see who caused the fall of the Wraith-lord, but was rather given an utterance even he could not fully explain. The bards of the Rohirrim seem to be echoing the 'trick' that Tolkien himself would be quite aware of, and tricky wording can go hand in hand with respect to fulfilling prophecy (compare Macbeth for example). Granted, allowing Tolkien his fun here is a bit of an external nod, but it's maybe similar to accepting that Orthanc happens to be the same in form and meaning in a language that had not yet arisen in the World (Old English). Last edited by Galin : 10-02-2008 at 10:00 PM. |
10-02-2008, 03:59 PM | #51 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Ha - an old thread from before I joined...
I agree that Glorfindel probably saw nothing at all, only uttered the famous oracular words, much like the prophetic dream-words of Boromir and Faramir and maybe also everything by Malbeth. Remember also the dreams of Lowdham in "Notion Club papers"? No images, only words. The prophecy was likely made in Westron, as Glorfindel spoke to Earnur, and thus from the start contained this ambiguity of man (the male of the race) versus Man (any representative of the race). There was a debate above in this thread whether the WK had known Glorfindel's words. Yes he did. In the draft for the Houses of Healing chapter (Home 8) it is clearly stated by Gandalf: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 10-03-2008 at 10:35 AM. |
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10-02-2008, 05:01 PM | #52 | ||
Deus Ex Machina
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As to a vision versus words... I think neither, by which I mean no specific or prolonged images and that the words would have been Glorfindel putting into his own words a very brief hint of an image and a sense of knowledge.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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10-02-2008, 08:32 PM | #53 | |
Elven Warrior
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Or perhaps (1) Glorfindel's speech was as imprecise as Neil Armstrong's; (2) he actually did say, "a man" but whoever recorded what he said made a scribal error.
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 10-02-2008 at 08:33 PM. |
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10-02-2008, 10:37 PM | #54 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Just as an aside, generally speaking we might guess at a Westron word using banakil 'halfling, hobbit' (Appendix F), and considering also Banazîr 'Half-wise' and tarkil. Quote:
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10-02-2008, 11:38 PM | #55 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Lol no, but Tolkien certainly did!
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
10-03-2008, 01:14 AM | #56 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Does anyone know whether there were articles (a, the) in Westron?
I think not - see the only Adunaic text we have in Lowdham's Report in SD:413-440: Quote:
All this I have taken from the site: Adunaic According to this site, in Adûnaic man was narû: Quote:
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10-03-2008, 07:46 AM | #57 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Generally speaking, Glorfindel had delivered his statement long before Frodo's day, and his prophecy could seem archaic in some way, compared to 'Modern Westron'. Anyway, Hammond and Scull on the matter (slightly edited for brevity here): Quote:
Last edited by Galin : 10-03-2008 at 08:00 AM. |
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10-03-2008, 07:56 AM | #58 |
Elven Warrior
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It was one small stab for [a] [wo]man, one giant slice for mankind.
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
10-03-2008, 11:23 AM | #59 | |
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10-03-2008, 11:27 AM | #60 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Love it
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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