04-19-2004, 12:19 PM | #41 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I don't know that I would categorize them as "successive steps", GrayMouser ... I disagree with that statement from TalkOrigins. I think it would be more accurate to amend your statement to "the TalkOrigin site presents them as 'ends of a continuum' and suggests the following list:", but that's only MHO
(Presenting the options this way is also a subtle slight to creationists, btw, (as in "they belong down there with the stupid flat-earthers, who we all know are wrong") but I'm not surprised by that, seeing as it's from TalkOrigins. They do better than usual at repressing prejudiced, un-scientific jabs, but they still do it.) And Janny, here's a link to my summary posts on creationism, if you're interested: link TalkOrigins is a pretty good site, IMO, and I've enjoyed reading it. However, I find them prejudiced in favor of evolution (which is certainly their right, but they should not present themselves as being neutral, then.) I've found that several of the arguments against creationist positions which they present as CONCLUSIVE are COMPLETELY hypothetical; this is not proof. (IOW, they "refute" some creationist points by saying "This creationist point is false, because it is possible that so-and-so is true." I'm sorry, but that is NOT proving the creationist point false; it is merely pointing out that it MAY not be true - there is a HUGE difference!) A creationist would get (rightly) laughed off the site if they said "evolution is not true because God may have created things like the Bible says", yet in those cases, the evolutionists are saying the SAME THING, and presenting it as conclusive proof against the creationist point in question. Read their posts with an open mind (yes, I said an open mind, IRex ) and you will definitely see this happening in some cases. I still need to get my rear in gear and present my logical objections to their computer simulation examples ... I think my objections are quite valid, and I have the background to support them. Should be interesting. And also, I've been meeningtersay that frankly, I think the purpose of science is to .... find out things. The universe is incredible - let's find out more about it! "Science" has been kinda hijacked in the creation/evolution debate, IMO, like "science supports evolution!" or "science supports creationism!" Well, science should support whatever observations are observable, measureable, and repeatable. And it does. And the important underlying assumptions of the theory of evolution and creation are NOT observable, measureable and repeatable. I'm NOT saying we shouldn't make logical inferences, such as punctuated equilibrium, but I AM saying we should not label these inferences as "supported by science".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-19-2004 at 12:34 PM. |
04-19-2004, 05:08 PM | #42 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
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My word that is long! I will read it soon. I promise.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-19-2004, 05:45 PM | #43 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Yes, and believe me, I had to cut out a lot of things. There's a lot of good stuff out there for creationism, IMO. Have fun, and read it with an open mind
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-25-2004, 12:15 AM | #44 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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I've spoken with the creationist speaker now, in person. Unfortunately I had a very limited time span in which to talk with him, so not all the answers were satisfactory to me.
He's not a part of the Institute of Creationist Research. He has studied these issues at great length on his own, as a hobby. I'll start to post his answers to the questions, now. Quote:
However, this answer didn't really address your question directly. Sorry about that. He might explain more fully on email, later on. |
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04-25-2004, 12:18 AM | #45 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
The speaker was very knowledgeable in biology. He simply suggested knowing the material, examining both sides of the story. He said that he'd read creationist arguments that he didn't find valid, as well. As I suggested he might, he also mentioned at various times occurences when others had faked information against Christianity. He took apart the intermediate species for the horse, when I brought it up. He stated that some of those animals that were supposedly intermediate species were still alive today, and that others differed between having two and four toes. Let's see. So his primary statement was simply to emphasize the importance of knowing the subject, and of looking at both sides of the story. Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately the man will be out of state for a week, and incapable of using his email. Therefore it'll be probably about seven to eight days before I'm able to offer his responses further, here. Though I could be wrong. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-25-2004 at 12:34 AM. |
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