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#561 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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The greatness of Al-Andalus civilization is much overrated, in my opinion. Actually, politically Al-Andalus was not that a great place to be. Even under the caliphate centralized power could only be maintained by oppression of the natives, like the rebellions during the IX and X century confirm. While scientifically and artistically they were superior to their north Iberian counterparts, they were incapable of creating a stable, ethnically integrated state. Partially it was due to the nature of political power under Muslin rule, it is legitimated by religion, but in a country where the majority wasn’t Muslin no Emir or Caliph could expect to be accepted as the true ruler but by strength of arms. This frailty becomes even more apparent during the Taifa kings. Distrusting the native population, local lords would use exclusively Berber, Arab and other non-iberic forces. Not even native muslins were accepted in the army. In fact, Islam in Iberia never really became truly native. The aristocracy always acted as a colonial force, exploiting the native population. Sorry about the rant, but Medieval History is hard to resist. ![]()
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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#562 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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But compare that with Christian Iberia, which was often just as concerned with strife between Leon/Castile/Aragon/Portugal/etc during this time period, and Al-Andalus (at least when it was still one theoretical state, rather than the Taifa kinglets) doesn't look half so bad.
Basically, Iberia in the 10-12th centuries just shows religion did not work as a unifying factor except in a very broad sense.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#563 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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#564 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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Actually the muslins spent a lot of time fighting among themselves; quarrels between Arab factions, quarrels between Arabs and Berbers, quarrels betweens Arabs and Berbers against the native population, not to mention dynastic quarrels and…you get the picture. ![]() However, if the strife between Christian states in the north of Iberia wasn’t that infrequent still they had a far greater cohesion at the social and political level, at least at the internal level of each state, which is one of the reasons why the North won. Just look at the longevity of Christian states, they had a clear identity from early on. Quote:
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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#565 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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[QUOTE=inked]Attribution to Erik Nelson at midwest conservative journal blog:
"This is one of those areas where the historical illiteracy of most Americans causes severe problems. Few seem to understand that the Crusades were a response to the invasion of Europe. Fewer seem to know that Christians eventually lost the battle with Islam in the Holy Land, even though it did eventually drive out the invasion from a good deal of Europe QUOTE] Just great; facts have arisen in this thread and not opinion. Thanks Inked! ![]()
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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#566 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Thou shalt not kill.
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When the scripture says, "thou shalt not kill," the actual Greek means, "do not murder." Jesus also never said, "all killing is wrong," but he did say murder was, and that anyone who is even angry with his brother is subject to judgment. In fighting a war, one is defending others, not just oneself. If I assassinate an evil man, often this too is a means of defending others. Of course, if there are other courses of action that can be taken, it is definitely best to carefully examine those first! But assassination can be a means of defending others, and if someone is planning evil against others, it is my responsibility as a person to stop him or her. Defending the helpless is a critical responsibility of any true human, unless it is completely outside of that person's power to do anything. Quote:
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I declare war against all evil. In my life, I hope that I will live out this declaration boldly. When it is absolutely necessary, sometimes even killing is necessary for the defence of others. I am in favor of the death penalty too, so long as we aren't getting many innocent people AT ALL ![]() In my opinion, forgiveness is better for me to show than justice. I hope that if anyone I love is killed, I shall forgive the murderer. Revenge is in no way acceptable as far as the Lord is concerned, according to his words in the New Testament.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#567 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I do not believe in retaliation or revenge. This I want made absolutely clear. Nor am I in favor of killing for greed, envy, and hopefully not anger either. If it is done, it must be done for the defense of others. Court law is defense of others, for if a law exists and is upheld by a society, law-breakers will be much more careful and many times will simply not act as they would if the country was more lenient. In this way, a law with a death penalty does protect others.
Assassination too can protect others. Defensive of preemptive war can also be highly moral, designed to defend others from hostile aggression. Quote:
I assume you're against abortion too, by the way. Am I right? If you are, I agree with you on that point. Abortion is unjustifiable killing, and a kind of behavior I definitely hope ends up becoming completely prohibited in the US. One aborts I think entirely for selfish reasons. Desperation and fear to me are selfish reasons. It also is self-defence rather than defence of other people. Quote:
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I must behave in the best way I can, according to my moral judgment of what's right and the word of God. Sometimes, the best way to behave is to kill or fight. This is horrible, but I believe it's true. Quote:
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Sometimes a police officer finds it necessary to shoot a criminal. I really believe he would be totally in the wrong if he held his fire, and thus put more innocent lives at stake. Assassinating or making war sometimes must be done for moral reasons like this. I hope that what I have said makes sense to you, morally. I hope to one day roleplay with you on Atharon ![]() ~Lief Erikson
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#568 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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Great Christian theologian and modern martyr (for those of you unfamiliar). He had the option of staying in the U.S. early in the war, but was so devoted to his people that he returned to Germany to continue his secret Christian ministry. He was killed in a concentration camp a few weeks before the end of WWII.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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#569 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Good point.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#570 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Hi there Lief: thanks for the reply: shorter than i imagined
![]() ![]() I don't have time just now for a reply: but i will try and put some thoughts down by tuesday or wednesday. best BB |
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#571 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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It's my two posts from the 24th you're looking at, not my post from the 26th, correct?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#572 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Hi Lief
![]() third time's the charm - have attempted to reply twice and not been happy with it, so logged out... page 21 post 410, third or 4th bit down i think describes my personal general position... anyway i checked and i do seem to have banned myself from this thread ... but it would be rude not to reply something. I guess i really shouldn't, and to be fair don't really wish to pursue this ... but i'll have a bash at a couple of your points since you took such effort in penning them. ![]() firstly, for myself i DO make a distinction between God and the imperfect way he has been represented on earth by imperfect Man... and some of the things done in his name etc... nor do i see that every word written in God's name or relating to god written by man can or even could be truly God's word: some of it is frankly contradictory with other bits... Quote:
also just because jesus never said "all killing is wrong" does not imply that it is: he just never happened to have said it. eg: Because jesus did not also say (presumably ![]() "20th century gas chambers are not on" does not give any moral legitamacy to the use of gas chambers ... (ignoring the murder bit which does obviously cover this ... but you get the point ![]() Quote:
Again back to my central point ... there are writings saying all manner of things .. to me this is pointless: who wrote that? Why? is it clear that it is indisputedly word for word direct from god? ![]() I'm sure i could find someone to find an appropriate verse etc that would counter this in some valid way. (in this case probably very many) That is not a route i think is fruitful to us. Anyway "a season for every activity under heaven" does rather imply we can do whatever we like, if it is the right (and it's vague enough) season: heh, it's that kinda season says One: whaddya fancy? maybe some pillaging or theft, a rape or two? Sodomy or swearing? Disrepecting our Parents? Creating false idols whilst coveting an Ox and taking the Lord's name in vain? Again, you get my point .... this particular line seems really quite extraordinarily NOT what i imagine God's core principles or teachings to be about. BTW: this is not in any way mocking Christianity, just an example of such man penned words, of which there are thousands and how these could be used and have been by religion (all religions) and Churches to choose to do what they aimed to do etc... or by individual lunatics hell-bent on doing wrong... Quote:
Is not forgiveness the justice we give on a personal and personal moral level? How can we possibly forgive if there is no justice? To me, the teachings of christ are to forgive: each sinner will be judged ultimately, but not by us here on earth, it is not our place to make such decisions; it is God's. Quote:
Or, if against Abortion, then condone a death penalty? Sure one can be seen as an innocent and the other not: but did not jesus say " i will judge all" (or my father etc) : i.e. it is not for us to pick and mix which core ,oral techings to adhere to or to disregard ... and the above quote too: "Revenge is in no way acceptable as far as the Lord is concerned" would support this, no? Of course now i am as guilty of picking verse etc to support my point ... my only defence would be: i quoted you! ![]() Again i suggest we leave that approach because it's a pointless exercise. Quote:
To me this perhaps is the crux of the matter: and my curiosity. assasination is murder, regardless of our own percieved justification of it morally. Even by your own quote Jesus clearly tells us this is wrong - AND NOT TO BE DONE. But going back to the quote: you appear to be saying that in Christian moral belief: Hitler, in this example, would be ok in the eyes of God, or that Chevaz if harbouring exremist Muslims for example is also on good solid firm ground, because if they as equally as you see themselves as defending their faith and their way of life and their family and friends etc: then they too have every moral justification to assasinate, kill, attack etc because in your very words: Defensive of preemptive war can also be highly moral Surely Lief: we have a problem here? What then do we distinguish between terrorists and evil killers and ourselves if we morally justify their behaviour? Well lief ![]() Hope you find it a worthy response - for myself i beleive God judges your soul, not written words ... if, in a circumstance you had to kill to defend a close loved one or dependant and you in your heart felt it was right, and forgave both yourself and the attacker for putting you in that position, i believe God will view your soul and it will be bright and whole. But i cannot see how a soul could be seen as joyus to the Lord that took issue with his word and instruction and actively sought to make it's own moral decisions on life and death and in this example advocated assasination or state sponsored death penalities, making it's own moral codes to replace God's. These are of course my theoretical or theological thoughts rather than being in any way what i might do in any given situation or relating to world views or my own viewpoints. I feel i should make this clear: for example when i thought the police officer in london had every reason to believe the innocent Brazilian to be a bomber: i did not hesitate to back him in making the call to save lives and do his job. Of course this also proves the worry about killing: he was innocent. But i am not a christian in any organized way: I beleive in God and the basic commandments: the rest i view as a historical swamp or vortex of words. (no offence) besides, neither am i a policeman, nor wish to be put into that situation - for many of the thoughts expressed above. Well, all the best anyway - i'm sure that ends it, eh lief? ![]() ![]() Hope nothing caused any offence. BB ![]() |
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#573 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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EDIT: duplicate. One was enough i think!
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#574 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I am fully capable of responding, my friend. I take note of these two statements of yours, however:
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I have some very interesting discussions rather like this going on in college right now; I'm LOVING them. Entmoot has been my first experience of real debate, and I'm benefitting from it in-class. So what do you want? Shall we continue? ![]()
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#575 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Hi Lief.
well, if you want to. Guess we should try and keep it friendly though. ![]() For my part i am merely curious how these things square up with modern day life and christian beliefs. can't be easy? |
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#576 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Ecclesiasties was written by Solomon, but it too is considered to be "the Word of God". As regards how this squares up with modern day life, I need you to explain something to me. Explain to me the view that "how can we arbitrarily decide when someone should die?" Why is it that you think no reason is good enough? You think, I assume, that for certain offenses we have the right to take away aspects of people's quality of life (by putting them in prison). Isn't this to a lesser degree taking away someone's life? It's an arbitrary decision too, based upon the needs of society and based upon our belief in the importance of justice. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#577 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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hi lief, this then will be a friendly cut and thrust of debate ... since you enjoy it ... rather than any means to any end ... a game of chess with rapier like words... or not as the case may well be sometimes!
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![]() .... please let's be very clear: everything i have talked about is not about me, or my viewpoints, nor do i wish it to be, it has always been my curiosity about how Christians deal with these moral dilemmas ... i was exploring the commandments and was asking the question since God will judge all, is it not ultimately HIS decision not ours? remember this began out of my curiosity how a christian could (morally) advocate assaniation? Well, Lief, look forward to you answering my questions with questions and me doing the same back! ![]() ![]() best BB ![]() |
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#578 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I'll be back later . . . supper now . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#579 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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how was your supper? Boy, i am hungry ... not really been eating well for the last few days with one thing and another and my hectic work life just recently.
Will go and have a real BIG Sunday lunch in a while ... ![]() Forgive me Lief: but i have always been told "thou shall't not kill" was a commandment. Of course this is my problem with organised religion in that we then get into semantics and historical interpretation etc: language is a living thing and in part reflects and is shaped by societies and places and people .... and the exact use or interpretation of language is absolutely KEY to it's meaning. And of course it's the very meaning here we are looking at.... but even if we view it as murder ... assaination would count, don't you agree? Quote:
![]() that's highly debatable ... maybe as a solitary individual soldier .. if you are lucky .. i.e. maybe not intentional murder, but innocents being killed anyway in cross-fire etc ... or following nasty orders to burn places down even though you know there are people in there .. maybe of all types, ages and genders ... How many inncoents have the US or Britain, or the Germans, or the french or Japanese, or the Russians or the iraqi's or the Vietnamese etc etc killed in war: quite often more than actual combatants. Hiroshima? The brit and US firestorm blanket bombings of Dresden? Inncoent children killed and burnt hideously? This then is morally o.k. but abortion is not? BTW: i am in no way a pacifist ... but this is not about me: (nor you ![]() hey Lief ![]() ![]() To me it's all these man penned words .... claiming to come from god but to me it seems appearing to contradict Jesus's KEY moral commands ... odd isn't it? Anyway, hope you enjoyed your supper. I'll say a prayer at lunch for those without any food, or water or shleter this day. (can't do any harm can it?) Best BB ![]() P.S. Heh Lief! Valandil and Earniel have just joined a new rpg here ... of nazgul and kings .... it'd be great if you could join ... even just as an occasional poster .. i'm sure they like me would be very pleased to have someone of your RPG reputation part of it! |
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#580 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Also there are other places in the Bible where killing is accepted in certain situations. It is in Ecclesiasties, "there is a time to kill . . . a time for war . . . a time to tear down." It is in the Law of Moses, where the court system was set up. Death penalty was definitely very much a part of the law. That shows that our God, Yahweh, is not opposed to people coming to their own conclusions about whether or not to kill someone. He of course is strongly against the innocent being convicted and destroyed, but never promises "you don't need to have courts or trials- I with my perfect knowledge will judge you all." Quote:
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Another tough issue is policy decisions. When war commanders decide to engage, they know that innocents will be killed. They may try to minimize those casualties as much as they possibly can, but they must acknowledge that innocents too will die. Therefore when they choose to destroy an enemy, they are knowingly deciding that X number of civilians too are going to die. My answer to that is that sometimes we have no choice. Which is a worse evil? To refuse to attack as long as it's possible civilians will die (which will be almost all the time), and thus cause many, many more of your own people to die, or to destroy innocent lives along with your enemies? If you're unwilling to allow the possibility of your destroying any civilians, you're unwilling to allow the possibility that your cause will win the war. It's certain that with your lofty principles you will lose the war. So sometimes, I would say, the destruction of civilians is a necessary evil in our imperfect world. It is something that unfortunately we cannot change. Quote:
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Really though, I would turn the question around some toward you. If you believe killing is never justifiable, how is prison justifiable? God is going to judge the person later on, after all. I know you aren't interested in answering that, but I consider that slightly cheap ![]() Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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