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#541 | ||
Guy-who-should-come-here-more-often
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Alberta, in spirit -- Vlaanderen, in body (Canada? Never heard of it!)
Posts: 120
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But the question of the real existence of evil is a giant philosophical problem. Evil certainly exists as a phenomenon of experience. That is, we experience evil so it seems to us like it exists, anyway. Whether or not evil is an actual thing, though, like an albatros or a radiator is a thing, is not at all clear. I think St. Augustine's idea that evil is a lack of goodness where there really ought to be goodness is still a pretty darn good definition of evil. On that view ("the privation theory of evil"), no, evil doesn't "really" exist at all. It's just the absence of a good that should exist (and there are goods that need not exist -- they're called supererogatory goods). And of course absences don't really exist, unless you want to play funny word games -- absences are the exact opposite of existence, and evil is the kind of absence that ought not to be an absence (language has trouble with speaking about lacks -- we have to use the verb "to be" to describe things that aren't there!). But that doesn't change the fact that it sucks horrendously to have to suffer those sorts of deprivations -- and that's real enough for us! I gather by the last bit of your question (excepting the blonde-day part) that you think that evil originates in hell. I don't think that's quite right. Evil doesn't originate in hell; rather, hell is the only place left for evil to go (other than obliterating it, which wouldn't take seriously [among others] the people who prefer evil). Evil originates, according to the usual Christian understanding (I hope I'm getting it right -- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) solely in the wills of creatures capable of making moral decisions. That is, even though a donkey can choose this or that pile of hay, a donkey can't decide to be an asshole (the potential for further puns is tempting!). People can decide to be very bad or good indeed, so insofar as they choose to be very bad, they are an origin of evil. Many Christians also believe that non-corporeal beings (i.e., angels) can choose to be very bad. The ones that did choose to be very bad ended up as "demons," lead by the first (and baddest?) one, "Satan." Personally, I think there's enough human evil around to really bother thinking about demons too. But that's just me. Don't know if that was helpful or not. It's pretty short and pretty dense. Maybe if you have a brunette-day tommorrow it will be easier to understand, or maybe I did such a bad job at explaining it I should do it all over again. At any rate, I'm done for now. Love,
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Amandil Mithadan "Why would you want to tamper with anything Tolkien did?" --Ralph Bashki "Seeking self, I find nothing but myself, but in this I drink the cup of gall I really am. I want everything, and I may have everything, but I have nothing except what I have. What I have I know is not what will fulfill me, and I know this in the bitterness of satisfied desire. Everything I have is still not enough, and in getting everything I have, I have not myself, indeed what I have may have twisted what I am and might be into an image of my own possessions. I will to possess, but I end up possessed by what I possess." -- William Desmond (Ethics and the Between, p. 209-210) |
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#542 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 516
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Hello Rian,
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RÃ*an point 1 - since you quoted where I said "at least I challenge you to show where I, personally have said that a non-believer can live a perfectly just life and still go to hell.", and then quoted something I said awhile back, it looks like you're trying to say that I did INDEED say that a non-believer can live a perfectly just life and still go to hell; is that what you're trying to say? I would have to disagree with you. Sorry, I didn't mean to leave that impression. The quotes were a poor attempt to illustrate my reasoning. I try not to put words in anyone's mouth, but it might appear that way due to my own post being unclear. point 2 - whether or not Gandhi is in hell - I can certainly tell you that I cannot make that final decision. All I can say with confidence is that the ONLY way of salvation is through Jesus. I'm don't know enough to say whether or not Gandhi made that decision or not; neither do you. I imagine just Gandhi and God know. If he did NOT, then yes, by his own free choice, he is in hell (the Bible says that all men are without excuse, for God reveals Himself to them in various ways, and God is just and fair). However, he may well have chosen to accept God's way of salvation; I just don't know. This was the answer I was looking for back on page 4 or 5. Thanks. Everyone has done such a fine job discussing this issue I'm a little intimidated. I think I'll just sit back now (silently) and occasionally lurk.
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Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) |
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#543 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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You're welcome, Hasty Ent, and please don't feel intimidated - join in whenever you want to
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#544 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Amandil - yes, I'm pretty sure we did talk about hell already as the absense of God, but I can't remember where... this thread's too long now! Actually, looking back at Hasty Ent's post, it looks like it was around page 5...
Quote:
Overall, I agree with Amandil's post. Did his post explain it to your satisfaction? I only differ slightly in the area of an absense not really existing (evil is an absense of good). I think there are 2 concepts here, and that is what's leading to the bit of confusion. I think that:
And as far as where evil originated, the Bible makes it clear that dualism is NOT a possibility (i.e., two EQUAL but OPPOSITE powers - God and Satan). God is the One who has existed from all eternity - Satan is just one of his creations who happened to choose to rebel and destroy and kill and hate. I think that the POSSIBILITY of evil came into being (in a sense) when God created beings with free will. But the Bible is clear that God Himself is NOT evil.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-14-2003 at 08:27 PM. |
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#545 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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And I'll move on in the scumbag discussion...
I think I'll try to cut down on the depth of detail and get everything written out in this post (or maybe 2 posts), and then if people disagree/misunderstand, then I can always elaborate. So to review, it's not just/fair on our part to judge the "badness" of someone, because we CANNOT see their heart, or their past, or how hard/easy it is for someone to act a certain way! For example, it is no merit on my part to NOT steal - I'm just not tempted in that particular area! Nor am I tempted (to use the worst-case example that started off this topic) to sexually abuse children, so it is no merit for me not to do that. Pardon my being matter-of-fact about this, but wouldn't you say that child abusers abuse children because they WANT to? (even if they think it's wrong, they still, in a sense, WANT to, or are physically/mentally driven to). IOW, this is NOT what goes thru their minds : "well, I think that abusing children is really wrong, and I have no desire to do it at all - hey, I think I'll go abuse a child now". I think that sin nature comes out in different people in different ways, and in different "strengths". God alone knows everything about each person, and so He is the only one that can judge people completely justly. Now on to the new parts - I think the remaining issues are:
About God's holiness - I think, Coney, that you would probably agree that no human has ever lived a sinless life. From your post, it appears that you think that the "good" people should have the chance to get into heaven. But the point is, that you have drawn a line somewhere - on the spectrum of bad actions, if perfect is on the top and really scumbag is on the bottom, you plot, according to your wisdom (which CANNOT be just, as I pointed out above), the various people you know or have heard of. No one is at the top, but some really nice people are perhaps near the top, then the rest fall somewhere farther down the line. Then you have drawn a line somewhere, where you think that everyone above the line should go to heaven, and every one below should NOT even be ELIGIBLE for salvation. You've probably never thought of it that way, but don't you think I'm right? (if not, let me know ![]() But God is absolutely holy and perfect! Just like you are repelled (and very rightly so) by child molestation, and think it is wrong to even tolerate it, God is repelled (and rightly so) by even the slightest sin! Can you see this concept? I'm going to type in a rather long quote on this subject that I think will illustrate this probably better than what I said. And I better start another post now, because this is pretty long (oh well...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-14-2003 at 08:53 PM. |
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#546 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
And although the point of this quote was more to illustrate human wickedness (which was the title and point of the chapter that I quoted from), the reason that I chose to quote it is that I think it's a good illustration of how it is proper and right thing for God to regard ALL sin, no matter how insignificant, as an abhorrance. And I don't have time now to get to points 2 or 3 (whatever point 3 was ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-14-2003 at 09:09 PM. |
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#547 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
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*no comment here*
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#548 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa
Posts: 327
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The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. |
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#549 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
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![]() *Feeling very respectful* *No disrespect intended* |
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#550 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
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The Problem of Pain, by C. S. Lewis
is that the book you recommended to me rian? i apologize, my memory is fading. i have not read it as of yet. god is our father, we are his children. god allows evil things to happen to his children as a result of free will. this is acceptable. is that a representative statement? i am a father, i have children. i allow evil things to happen to my children as a result of free will. is that also acceptable? what kind of father allows his children to be hurt and hides under the blanket of free will? easy; one that doesnt exist!
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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#551 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
You've always been civil and kind, Coney, but I certainly respect if you want to not talk about these things anymore .... but I'll miss you terribly... ![]() *sigh*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#552 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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and I don't have the heart to answer you now, MasterMothra, except to say yes, that is the book, and I sure wish you would read it....and you and I have already gone over the free will issue at great length in whatever thread that was about Melkor....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#553 |
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
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RÃ*an & Amandil - I see your point re evil existing in a place where no good can be found (where God is not). But I don't agree with all that was said, in my view evil exists regardless of the presence of God - for instance even 'saved' people can have evil thoughts (or does that not count - are only deeds evil?)
I also have a problem with the view(s) expressed by you 'cos isn't God omnipotent? Therefore evil should not exist anywhere on earth because God is everywhere.............. Re the issue of what is right / wrong etc - I agree with Coney that there are many Christian (and other religion's) beliefs that I do not agree with: I agree that murder, rape, etc is wrong but I will never agree that homosexuality is wrong. RÃ*an - thanks for the encouragement, you know the background so I am sure you will not see my questions as personal slants in any way.
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Don't wet yourself with excitement. |
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#554 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
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Quote:
My earthly father loves me very much, this I know. Yet, he doesn't try to control my actions, nor does he make all of my decisions for me. If he did, he would be considered overprotective. Yes, he gives me guidance, and I don't always follow it. There are some mistakes I have to make, and there are some things I have to experience for myself. If I ever found myself in a harmful situation that I wasn't able to get out of on my own (such as drugs or an abusive relationship), my father would be there for me, to help pull me through my difficult time. God is the same way. Instead of keeping me sheltered through overprotection, Father (both heavenly and earthly) gives me the right to choose;I have free will. But I also have someone I can count on to help me when I make mistakes, and someone to rejoice with when my decision was a wise one.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 02-15-2003 at 04:07 AM. |
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#555 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
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well, rian, i just dont see the point in reading a book with a christian perspective if i dont have faith. faith cannot be rationalized, its simply something you have or dont have, and no amount of reading or writing can change that. the faith that i have is based on personal experience, and my personal experience, as a christian and non-christian, tells me that there is simply no god. at least not the one portrayed in the christian bible. and until god decides to "show" himself, then he has about as much historical value as the tooth fairy.
star polish, i see you points and i agree with them somewhat, but what im talking about is the literal interpretation. god watches one of his children beat the other to death with a baseball bat. he doesnt interfere. why? because to interfere would infringe on our free will. god is deemed just in his non-action. now: a father sits and watches his son get beat to death by another child. if he doesnt interfere can he use the same reasoning as god and be justified? or is he a negligent parent or just simply follwing god's example? would you interfere if you saw your child being physically hurt? why?
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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#556 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
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Quote:
Reading a book with a Christian perspective may give you insight on how those who do believe in God view the world, and how they came to your faith. Rian is not asking you to rationalize faith, she is simply asking you to read a book with a different point of view. It's no different than someone asking me to read Nietzche (I know I spelled that wrong). Quote:
The person doing the beating is not God. That person is of the world, could be considered the world. God is just, the world is not. God does not have control over us, nor does He wish to. You cannot have love without free will. Quote:
Don't get me wrong. I haven't entered this faith easily, and I've fallen many times. I'm still struggling with some aspects of God and Jesus Christ, because I find I disagree with a lot of the more organized churches. I have fought against God as well as with Him. I flirted with Wicca for a while a few years back, then was agnostic for a short stretch of time. That period in my life was absolutely horrifying. I wasn't happy with myself, and I was extremely angry or sad all the time. I was fighting against God and an invisible attacker...I knew it was there, but I didn't know what it was. My life was a bit destructive at that time. I didn't get into drugs, alcohol or sex, but another type of destructive behavior I'd rather not talk about. Christianity isn't always easy, but I found that after I found Jesus my life calmed considerably. I'm generally happy and comfortable with myself, and life is far brighter with Him in my life.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 02-15-2003 at 01:09 PM. |
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#557 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Those are some very good points, Starr Polish. God does defend his children (The Bible is full of instances where he does), but those who won't accept his help he leaves to the outcomes of their own actions. If we refuse to accept God, how can we demand his protection? We are in sin and the world is in sin, but he longs to bring it into his light, and he offers that light to all mankind. It is theirs for the taking, but if they don't accept it, then of their own free will they remain in darkness.
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#558 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
I'm going to be gone most of the weekend, so I probably will not post on this thread anymore until Monday or Tuesday (it usually takes some thought to post here, because I'm talking about more complicated thoughts than "which elven-king is the coolest" ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#559 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
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i see your points and they are taken well. i do take a more literal approach to the bible, that is why i dont believe the bible as far as god is concerned. there could be a god, i concede, but if there is, he isnt the monster that is portrayed in the bible.
i'll leave you with a couple of passages on a womans role in god's world. remember: this is the word of god and as christians believe, is beyond reproach. 1 Corinthians 11 3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[2] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 34As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Eph 5:22 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 1 Timothy 2 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Titus 2 3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. 1 Peter 3 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. I especially like this passage. It shows god's kindness: Exodus 21 17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. Do you really believe the following passages with all your heart? Do you believe this to be god's possition on how women are secondary to men?
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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#560 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
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"God does defend his children (The Bible is full of instances where he does), but those who won't accept his help he leaves to the outcomes of their own actions. If we refuse to accept God, how can we demand his protection? "
so let me get this right. if you are a true christian, god will protect you from harm?
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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