05-25-2006, 05:33 PM | #441 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(Of course Lotesse claims to be able to read my mind; maybe we should just hire her ) Quote:
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The reality of things is that resources are limited, and I think one must look at harm and enforceability issues when talking about what laws to enact. Passing laws against wrong thoughts, for example, would be ridiculous, although I think wrong thoughts are very harmful. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-25-2006 at 05:39 PM. |
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05-25-2006, 05:42 PM | #442 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm not into "petty little gotcha games" and I don't use them. I hope you believe me. If I think I'm right, I'll try to convince someone by any honest means I can. I'm not into trickery at ALL - if I can't convince someone with honest means, then I shouldn't try to convince them with tricks. I wouldn't do that. Honesty is very important to me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-25-2006 at 05:43 PM. |
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05-25-2006, 05:48 PM | #443 |
Word Santa Claus
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C'mon guys, calm down... this is a lot more interesting for all of us (I hope) if you try to stay calm (I know that applies to me too, but I haven't posted in a while, so there's no evidence that I'm not calm )
Rian - I'm sure you've tried to state them before, but I'm still very unsure of your reasons as to why gay marriage is actively harmful. As far as I can see, I am in no way harmed if my 2 neighbours get married, regardless of their respective genders - nor do I see how they themselves are harmed.
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05-25-2006, 05:57 PM | #444 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm calm, Count, but I"m sad because my poorly-worded post made Rexy think I was trying to make him look foolish, which I wasn't And looking back on my post, I can totally see how it came off that way I just need to be really careful when I post here - typed "talking" is VERY difficult to work with!!!!! A lot of communication is non-verbal, visual cues, which we just don't have here. That's why I usually end up editing and refining my posts.
I'll post more later and try to answer your question, Count - I think I need to stop for today, though. I'm not avoiding your question (I hope you can see I don't avoid questions), but posts here need a lot of care to make sure they're expressed right, and that takes time, and I need to get some paperwork done like NOW - yuck! Tonight is VERY busy, and tomorrow, too, and I usually can't post much on weekends, so it might have to wait until Tuesday, unless I get an unexpected block of free time. Oh, wait - I have a meeting Tuesday ... well, I will get to your question, it might take a while, though. Carry on, guys!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-25-2006 at 05:58 PM. |
05-26-2006, 10:38 AM | #445 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Here's a sweet little story
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05-26-2006, 10:46 AM | #446 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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This is in a small town in one of our more rural provinces
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05-26-2006, 11:23 AM | #447 | |
Elf Lord
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That old cake and devour it thang, IR!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-26-2006, 01:42 PM | #448 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-26-2006, 02:03 PM | #449 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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By the way can you think of anything else you support for the same reasons you support banning gay marriage? That is because its ‘harmful’ and easy to enforce? Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 05-26-2006 at 02:04 PM. |
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05-26-2006, 02:10 PM | #450 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-31-2006, 05:07 PM | #451 |
Elf Lord
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You vill do as ve say or else.......
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...30/199231.html Oh, no, there'll never be unintended fallout much less abuse by same-sex couples of others..............
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-31-2006, 07:13 PM | #452 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
*huggles*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-31-2006, 07:56 PM | #453 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
(I haven't been too anxious to post this because it's always very draining to post here and be accused of awful things that I'd never even dream of thinking. Not by you, Count, but it does happen with some others, and it's really hurtful and draining. Anyway, time to buck up and post ) SO - to me, your question is like "please explain physics", so it prob. won't be a one-post answer. This is a complex subject, and is filled with raw emotions, and I don't want to hurt people, so I'll have to be very precise with my wording. As I have thought about this subject, I think the best analogy would be this: it's like you and I are dealt some cards. You lead a 2, and I play a 3. I think your play is wrong, and you think mine is wrong. The trouble is, each of us has different opinions on what game we're playing. According to the game you think you're playing, your 2 is an excellent lead and my 3 is a bad play. According to the game I think I'm playing, your 2 is a terrible lead and my 3 is an excellent play. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, I'm going to bring up that W-word - "worldview" - because IMO that has EVERYTHING to do with how one answers your question. By "worldview", I mean the unproven, unproveable beliefs that a person has come to form about the state of the universe. When I consider the question from what I understand to be your worldview, then I can see how you think that my opinion is wrong. (And btw, I don't see how you can logically call anything "right", but that's another thread.) When I consider the question from my worldview, then your opinion is wrong. By worldview, I mean the unproven, unproveable beliefs that a person has come to form about the state of the universe. SO - contrary to some people's opinion my worldview has NOT been formed by stupidly picking up a book that happened to be called a Bible and agreeing mindlessly with everything that's written in it. It's been formed by thousands of hours of thought and research. I don't hold it lightly. I certainly get abused for it! But the good parts just blow away the bad ones, and IMO, no other worldview even comes close to explaining the world I see around me as well as the Bible. In a very small nutshell, I think that it is a reasonable belief that there is a greater power behind things. I also think it's reasonable that that power would want to communicate with his/her creation. Furthermore, after considering the options, it's my opinion that the written record called the Bible is the best candidate by FAR (based upon things like internal consistency, historical accuracy, logical cohesiveness, comparison with things I can see in our world, etc. etc.) as a record of that communication. Now in that record, I see God creating two types of people - men and women. Furthermore, I see God instituting a bringing-together of a man and a woman in marriage, and I see incredibly intricate body parts designed to come together for pleasure and procreation. I see the great differences between men and women, and how their coming together makes an even greater whole, and God uses this picture to illustrate many things, such as God's intimate love for His people, and different aspects of His nature making a whole. So IMO, marriage isn't some evolved idea (there's no actual evidence for this, btw - it's just an opinion) - it's a purposeful design for the best of everyone involved, especially children. I'm a woman, but I have an incredible respect and admiration for both sexes. And I feel a great responsibility towards children, too. And IMO, having a good, stable marriage with one man and one woman is the absolute best thing for a child. IMO, saying that you can just pull out one partner and insert another so that it's a same-sex marriage is incredibly demeaning to whatever sex is pulled out. I think that women have amazing, incredible things to contribute to a child, just by being a woman. And ditto with men. And saying that a marriage can be woman/woman is demeaning to men and very harmful to any children that might be involved. And saying that a marriage can be man/man is demeaning to women and very harmful to any children that might be involved. Even if there are NOT children involved, because the same sex marriage is lived out in society, children will be seeing this and the harm is still there. I see design behind this universe. As an engineer, I know that design involves choices - choosing some things means not choosing others. I see marriage as a wonderful, intentional DESIGN, and one cannot simply pull out parts and substitute different ones. As far as why do some people not desire partners of the opposite sex, I'd say why do I desire things that go against God's design sometimes, too? We all are in the same boat. I do NOT consider myself at ALL better than gays - in fact, it would be a safe bet to say that many if not most gays are prob. nicer than I am. It's not a question of better. It's just a fact of design, and the reality is that not everyone gets all their desires fulfilled in this often cruel world. I'm very compassionate towards homosexuals; it must be an incredibly hard thing to have to deal with. There IS a lot of hate directed towards them, but not by me or even by Christianity, IMO, although it might come from individual hateful so-called Christians. I also have hard things to deal with. So do my kids. To me, we're all in the same boat, and I think that God took responsibility for giving us free will by voluntarily taking our punishment upon Himself if we choose to align to that reality. So there's a first cut at an answer - basically, because of my worldview, I think that marriage is an intentional design (and a wonderful one, too!), and that going against that design is very harmful to everyone involved. I think that men and women did NOT come about by evolutionary "accident", but rather were intentionally designed and created with marriage, among other things, in mind. Having a man and a woman in a marriage is a great things, and any other combination (more than 2, same sex, etc.) is, because of design decisions, NOT a great thing. I think children in a same-sex marriage household are deliberately being denied the wonderfulness of one entire sex, and are being denied the chance to view the relations between the two sexes.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-31-2006 at 07:58 PM. |
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06-01-2006, 03:51 AM | #454 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
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But Rian, how does this justify imposing this belief on someone else? Sorry to use the loaded word "impose," but what makes it right for you to say to someone else that they cannot choose to do something that, in your opinion, goes against God's design? Clearly, if you think it goes against God's design, you will not do it, since even though you say you desire some things against God's design I'm assuming you don't do those things despite your desire. But what privileges your belief in God's design over their belief in God's design? Or mine? Why should your belief that God did not design marriage for same-sex couples mean that a couple that believes God DID design it so (or a couple that believes God did not design it at all) cannot be married? Isn't it better to leave that decision to those couples? After all, if you allow your belief in God's design to trump theirs in respect to this decision for them, how does that have any more validity than, say, someone with a belief that God's design calls for slavery then imposing a slave system on a formerly free country? Or anything else motivated by what is seen as God's design?
Simply put, I still fail to see a reason why your judgement (or that of anyone not involved in the relationship, myself included) should be prioritized over that of those people actually in the relationship, if they want to get married. Where is the harm? As to the one issue in your post I see as a clear harm point, I'll now address the issue of "demeaning." Quote:
As to whether implying that you can plug in one sex for the other is demeaning... that's going to come down to worldview in a lot of ways. And I don't question that people need caring influences of both genders in their lives. But to say that the one you marry (civil contract committing two people to each other in the eyes of the state, remember) has to be of the opposite gender strikes me as far more demeaning to those who are closest, sexually and/or mentally, to someone of their own gender than allowing same-sex marriage is to people of the other gender. It is saying to a gay person that they are not competent to choose who to commit themselves to; that's demeaning. But allowing a gay marriage is not telling the other gender it is unnecessary. No marriage is a closed system. There is no question anywhere that both genders are necessary and important. Every person needs both genders in his or her life - but he or she also needs more than one other person in that life. To say that one's espoused must be that other gender is demeaning for the reason I said above - it implies that the person who wrote the law is more competent to choose the gay person's mate than the gay person is. No one is proposing to uproot one gender entirely from their lives - merely not to have to MARRY that gender.
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06-01-2006, 11:28 AM | #455 |
Elf Lord
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when is an imposition not an imposition....
check out this indoctrination program for 6 weeks to 6 years old and medical school applicants...... http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/may/06052908.html Now, is this imposition or not? and in that green and pleasant isle: http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/...784675,00.html This is particularly ironic to my mind. Subvert England via outside compacts.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 06-01-2006 at 11:32 AM. |
06-01-2006, 11:32 AM | #456 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*reads Count's reply*
That's a good, thoughtful, and considerate post, Count. I'm so appreciative of your input in this discussion. I'm just peeking in for a minute here, and will be able to reply at length in a few more hours when I have some free time.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-01-2006, 11:35 AM | #457 |
Elf Lord
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-01-2006, 11:36 AM | #458 |
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Question for you guys:
Why does the government care about marriage? What is the purpose of laws surrounding it? (I have an answer in mind...but I'd like to hear your opinions first)
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06-01-2006, 11:39 AM | #459 |
Elf Lord
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and the Scots.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...198359,00.html It would seem apparent that the issue is not simplistic at all, would it not? and, a worthwhile cultural essay on the Gay Movement and the Federal Marriage Protection Act (which essay I may disagree with but which seems accurate in its assessment of responses religious and cultural) ... http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/d...s/meteoric.doc
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 06-01-2006 at 11:49 AM. |
06-01-2006, 12:33 PM | #460 |
Elf Lord
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And here at home, a discussion of discrimination and legality and impacts:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0601/p13s01-lign.htm
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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