Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[Lizra]

What a waste. (IMO)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
What a waste. (IMO)

The Middle East actually has a huge unemployment rate. I think most of the countries were close to 20%. It makes germany's 10.5% unemployment small and our 6% nonexistant.

If the overall situation doesn't change in the Middle East - then neither will the terrorism. Even if the palestinians get their own state and the US removed our troops out of Saudi Arabia - it wouldn't do anything. Bin ladin and other fanatical groups have a steady stream of recruits in the people who don't see any end to their poverty and need someone to blame.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Artanis
No I'm saying that news in a war, regardless its sources and origin, are biased and filtered. I'm saying that everything in the news, worldwide, in the US also, should be regarded with a critical eye. A good principle in general, but now more than ever.

Oh I completely agree with that. I have a History degree, hehe, so I am well in tune with trying to find that critical eye, hence the importance of many sources for corroborating information. For the most part though, the things I've seen and read coming from Al Jazeera have been false and full of ridiculous claims, especially since 9/11 anyway....

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Remember - the reason we didn't finish the job was because the Arab League wanted Saddam to remain in power - knowing the attrocities he was committing against his people.

And amazingly they still do, did you see that they called for an end to the war the other day, lol. Unbelievable....

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They live under totalitarian governments. The only reason why Al Jazeera came abotu was because one country decided to let a "free press" agency be started. i really can't remember which country it's located in - but they've been constantly requested by the other countries in the area to shut down Al Jazeera.

It really doesn't matter how much money a country has- all it takes it lack of freedom to prevent a free media - let alone all the other freedoms we enjoy in the west.

Al Jazeera is in Qatar...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well the ruling parties own all the oil and everything - they spend it on jets, palaces and Rolls Royces.

Don't forget terrorist funding too

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
And amazingly they still do, did you see that they called for an end to the war the other day, lol. Unbelievable....

I know - I had seen that. If they cared about the Iraqi people they would be helping us remove Hussein and then helping us build a democractic society there. The thing is - they don't want a democracy there because it threatens their regimes. Can you imagine a prosperous Iraq where people actually have jobs and have freedoms? The surrounding countries wouldn't look very good to their own citizens if that happened. Right now they can just blame their problems on Israel and the west. If Iraq ends up prospering - what excuse will the rest of the Arab countries have for why their citizens continue to suffer?

[Dúnedain]

Did anyone else see the video today of little kids running up to the soldiers for candy and water? They all came running to the British soldier who had the stuff, they looked so happy. To me, it is the little things like that that make this war so much more worth it. It was kinda funny, at first they were scared and one brave little boy came up to the soldier, took the candy and then ran away, lol. Then when the other kids saw what he had they all came running to get some of their own, hehe it was great

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Al Jazeera is in Qatar...

yes Qatar - the country who point blank said they built that multi-million dollar airbase to encourage US troops to station there.

They said they needed the protection. As they put it - "we live in a very bad neighborhood with very big bullies and we need a powerful friend" So they figured if they built a huge air base (which obviously they didn't need for themselves) that we would come. And we did.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I know - I had seen that. If they cared about the Iraqi people they would be helping us remove Hussein and then helping us build a democractic society there. The thing is - they don't want a democracy there because it threatens their regimes. Can you imagine a prosperous Iraq where people actually have jobs and have freedoms? The surrounding countries wouldn't look very good to their own citizens if that happened. Right now they can just blame their problems on Israel and the west. If Iraq ends up prospering - what excuse will the rest of the Arab countries have for why their citizens continue to suffer?

It's funny now how all of a sudden Saudi Arabia is trying to make a peace agreement between us and Iraq. They know that with a free-trade economy of Iraqi oil actually being sold to the world market that they will get hit hard at home, that leads me to believe this false "peace" crap they are trying to propose. It is really funny how governments work. Just look at France and Russia. I can almost garauntee they only wanted peace because of the smuggling that they are doing with Iraq, look we already found how Russia has been backstabbing us, finding things that they ARE STILL supplying Iraq to help fight us, too bad we destroyed all of their crapping GPS systems they gave Iraq already, lol. I am sure we will find much more of this kind of stuff with "Made in France" written on it as well....

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Did anyone else see the video today of little kids running up to the soldiers for candy and water? They all came running to the British soldier who had the stuff, they looked so happy. To me, it is the little things like that that make this war so much more worth it. It was kinda funny, at first they were scared and one brave little boy came up to the soldier, took the candy and then ran away, lol. Then when the other kids saw what he had they all came running to get some of their own, hehe it was great

I saw that similar thing before - they had pictures of some kids getting candy from American troops in Time Magazine. The soldiers are bringing candy in for the children.

We see that - along with the injured children and other innocent people (which is a trajedy) and all Al Jazeera shows is the death and destruction.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
It's funny now how all of a sudden Saudi Arabia is trying to make a peace agreement between us and Iraq. They know that with a free-trade economy of Iraqi oil actually being sold to the world market that they will get hit hard at home, that leads me to believe this false "peace" crap they are trying to propose. It is really funny how governments work. Just look at France and Russia. I can almost garauntee they only wanted peace because of the smuggling that they are doing with Iraq, look we already found how Russia has been backstabbing us, finding things that they ARE STILL supplying Iraq to help fight us, too bad we destroyed all of their crapping GPS systems they gave Iraq already, lol. I am sure we will find much more of this kind of stuff with "Made in France" written on it as well....

None of them want peace - all they want is the status quo. Saudia Arabia would be very happy to continue funding terrorism and teaching hate in their schools and allowing Saddam Hussein to kill his own people. Also - by Iraq suffering, it's easy to just point the finger at the US because of the sanctions. It's just a way of diverting attention from the problems in their own countries and putting the blame on the US.

As for Russia - can you believe that Putin is upset with us? Supposedly the State Department had repeatedly told Russia that that company was selling military equipment to Iraq. Now we find Russian GPS jamming systems and night vision goggles made in Russia. Supposedly these were being sold as late as LAST MONTH to Iraq. I can't wait to see how the trail leads to France- besides the stuff we already know.

[Elvellon]

Iraq is on record of raping our previous soldiers during 1991, as well as breaking their bones and torturing them. To think that similar atrocities are not going on now - is naive. Just because the latest soldiers have appeared on TV - is little confort. The soldiers in 1991 were also marched in front of the media as a "prize".

I’m aware of the inhuman practices of Saddan’s regime, you are sourly mistaken if you think I put any expectation of their good will based solely on Saddan’s fear (and on the fear of his cronies) of the International Media, what I’m counting in is in their self-preservation instinct, specially of those that actually keep the prisoners. By now most Iraqis must feel that defeat is certain, and even the most optimistic must realise that it is a very real possibility. Since the prisoners were shown that constitutes damning evidence against them if something happens now to the prisoners, making them less likely to have “ideas” of their own, or following the wrong orders if things start to get ugly. This is the basic difference from the circumstances of 91; now the danger is much more serious to the followers of Saddan, and they have to take that into account. I’m basing myself in Historic events of similar nature, nothing naïf there.

I can't recall from the GC - does it say that the soldiers can't be shown on TV at all??? or is it more that they can't be displayed as prizes like our troops were?

So, this is your new approach. I must say I like this approach better, you must agree that it does makes much more sense than claiming that surrendering soldiers aren’t PoWs.

As you know the Convention language didn’t took in consideration video images, but it did took in consideration exposition to the public of PoWs, which can be done, massively, by the modern media.

While you perceive, correctly, that there is a clear difference between what Saddan did and the Western press was allowed to do (and we both can see that quality, and degree for the actions are different, I expect), you do not want even to consider that both are transgressions, (of a very different degree and quality but transgressions nonetheless). You see, the key issue of those images is that they can easily be perceived as being a transgression of the dignity of the surrendering troops (and despite what you say, there were indeed shown close-ups of soldiers and prisoners interacting, including after surrendering. See your own press about that, they state as much and I saw some myself).

Instead of focusing in denying the occurrence, it would be much more constructive to focus on the different (immoral) nature of Saddan’s action, don’t you think?

[Elvellon]

None of them want peace - all they want is the status quo. Saudia Arabia would be very happy to continue funding terrorism and teaching hate in their schools and allowing Saddam Hussein to kill his own people. Also - by Iraq suffering, it's easy to just point the finger at the US because of the sanctions. It's just a way of diverting attention from the problems in their own countries and putting the blame on the US.

Finally something I can agree.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The Middle East actually has a huge unemployment rate. I think most of the countries were close to 20%. It makes germany's 10.5% unemployment small and our 6% nonexistant.

If the overall situation doesn't change in the Middle East - then neither will the terrorism. Even if the palestinians get their own state and the US removed our troops out of Saudi Arabia - it wouldn't do anything. Bin ladin and other fanatical groups have a steady stream of recruits in the people who don't see any end to their poverty and need someone to blame.

Then why were most of the 9/11 terrorits from middle class to upper middle class households? And highly educated? In fact thats the rule not the exception.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Instead of focusing in denying the occurrence, it would be much more constructive to focus on the different (immoral) nature of Saddan’s action, don’t you think?

Well then the question comes into play - regarding the televised broadcast of POWs - does a western media - which is free to show ANYTHING they want basically - fall under the GC. And not just western media - but any media which freely records something? Or does the GC only apply to what role the GOVERNMENT might play in the release of the video.

It is clear that the Iraqi government released the tapes of our soldiers, unlike the few pictures of Iraqi soldiers which have appeared on our media. Although Al Jazeera is being criticised here for showing the horrific pictures of our soldiers - the US is not claiming they violated the GC. We are saying Iraq viololated it for RELEASING the tapes to the media. The US government has NOT released any videos or pictures of Iraqi soldiers we hold in captivity. The few pictures taken of Iraqi soldiers were captured by independent news sources - the US government had no role in their distribution.

The US government had asked our media not to show pictures of the POWs until they contacted the family. They know they can not prevent the media however from showing them if they choose to. Our media complied and then once the families were notified they showed them (but not the dead).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Then why were most of the 9/11 terrorits from middle class to upper middle class households? And highly educated? In fact thats the rule not the exception.

Most of the work horses in the organisation are poor and uneducated. I do agree that the hijackers were educated - but nothing I saw indicated that they were wealthy. When they interviewed the relatives of the hijackers - they did not look very wealthy to me. I can't remember the background of everyone of the 19 hijackers though.

The upper "management" of the orginaations are made up of wealthy people - but the people below are collected from the poor and uneducated. or brainwashed in the Madrasas (sp)

[jerseydevil]

This doesn't deal with Iraq - but it deals with Middle East politics, America, Israel and Bin Ladin. It's a free online seminar that analyses the Al Qaeda recruitment tape.

Producing Jihad: The Al Qaeda Recruitment Tape

Osama bin Laden's network has employed a variety of methods to disseminate his ideology. A notable recruitment method has been the use of videotapes produced by bin Laden's supporters with the intention of enlisting young Arab men to travel to Afghanistan and train for a holy war in defense of Islam. This seminar examines one of those tapes in depth and evaluates its significance as a tool of propaganda.

You have to register - but it's free. I found it interesting. Al Qaeda is a militant cult which uses propaganda to recruit people, just like any other cult.

Here are some points i found interesting...

A second and less apparent element favoring acceptance of bin Laden's propaganda derives from the lack of significant citizen participation in the political affairs of all but a few Muslim countries. People who have never known free elections and are subject to the decisions of absolute monarchs, military dictators, and heads of single-party regimes tend to see world affairs as the outcome of secret maneuverings by powerful forces. Internal security police and informants shadow their daily imaginings at home, and fantasies of conspiracy explain what happens on the international level. Past realities of imperialist manipulation, both overt and covert, make more credible bin Laden's claim that the United States controls every action taken by Muslim governments in agreement with its policies and that the United States is therefore Islam's foremost enemy.

"America pursues a hypocritical policy toward the Muslim world. America claims to be the champion and protector of human rights, democracy, and liberties, while at the same time forcing on Muslims oppressive and corrupt political regimes. Egypt is a case in point. As you well know, there are about 60,000 political prisoners in Egyptian jails and dozens of death sentences have been carried out. All this takes place with America's supervision, approval, and orders. America has a CIA station as well as an FBI office and a huge embassy in Egypt, and it closely follows what happens in that country. Therefore, America is responsible for everything that happens in Egypt and responsible for human rights violations there, and in other Arab countries as well."Sheikh Abu Yasir concurs: "Sadat said that the Americans control 99 percent of the cards of the political game. After succeeding him, Mubarak said that 100 percent of the cards are in the Americans' hands." Sheikh Yasir accuses Egypt's leaders of sacrificing the country's national and religious interests on the altar of their own personal interests serving the United States.

"Preparation," the second subsection, combines clips of bin Laden speaking about training for jihad with scenes of that training. This long section emphasizes individual skills and physical challenges. Aside from one clip of an Egyptian fighter teaching someone to fire a shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile, there is no suggestion that training will involve advanced technology or heavy weapons. Rather, the training seems like an adventure, almost a summer camp experience, a time of bonding for a common cause. The closing portion showing young boys having a fun time going through the same training reinforces the summer camp-like quality.

continued...

[jerseydevil]

Excerpt 7: Preparation, continued
This is the start of a lengthy episode showing little boys undergoing training on the same obstacle course earlier used by soldiers. It begins with the boys in school reciting the Quran and then moves to showing them marching lightheartedly in camouflage suits. A boy in Afghan garb, apparently bin Laden's son, recites a poem.Showing young boys in training implies that the struggle will last for many years and suggests to older viewers that they should show similar dedication. This role of young boys reflects bin Laden's praise of brave young "cubs" in Reel 1, Excerpt 3 and the later depiction of a heavily armed Israeli soldier fleeing a boy throwing stones in Reel 3, Excerpt 12.

"Using very meager resources and military means, the Afghan mujahidin demolished one of the most important human myths in history and the biggest military apparatus. We no longer fear the so-called Great Powers. We believe that America is much weaker than Russia; and our brothers who fought in Somalia told us that they were astonished to observe how weak, impotent, and cowardly the American soldier is. As soon as 80 American troops were killed, they fled in the dark as fast they could, after making a great deal of noise about the new international order. America's nightmares in Vietnam and Lebanon [referring to the suicide attacks on the US embassy and Marine barracks in the 1980s] will pale by comparison with the forthcoming victory in al-Hijaz."

There are video excerpts from the tape you can watch too. I thought it was pretty interesting.

Just the worst thing on the tape - is seeing the young boys and realising that they are being trained to be terrorists. Looking at 10 year old boys and knowing that they are being groomed to be our future enemies - is really sad.

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Did anyone else see the video today of little kids running up to the soldiers for candy and water? They all came running to the British soldier who had the stuff, they looked so happy. To me, it is the little things like that that make this war so much more worth it. It was kinda funny, at first they were scared and one brave little boy came up to the soldier, took the candy and then ran away, lol. Then when the other kids saw what he had they all came running to get some of their own, hehe it was great

I saw that and immediately thought of what a family friend once told me. He said that when he was serving in Viet Nam, the Americans would come into a village, and the kids would come running out for candy, or to sell cigarettes. The communists started wiring the kids with explosives and sending them out to the troops. I hope Saddam doesn't start doing something like that...