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#21 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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In The Hobbit, he calls Wargs "the evil wolves over the Edge of the Wild." Gandalf describes the goblins riding on WOLVES into the Battle of Five Armies "and Wargs are in their train." So I think that Wargs were like the great evil race of wolves (which is very Tolkien-like -- it makes sense that he would have a special genealogical line for these characters as he did many others). Also, when he tells how Gandalf can understand their language, I think it might just mean he knew "wolf," but that could be open for debate (was their language just a form of wolf, or was it actually a crude spoken language -- it does say they helped the orcs out frequently. Maybe they could actually communicate? It's fun to speculate).
As for goblins v. orcs, clearly they are the same "race" but I think a case could be made for there being a slight distinction. I can't find it, but in The Hobbit there is a line that says basically "their larger cousins the great orcs of the North" or something to that effect, refering to the goblins. I'm not disagreeing about the different names used for different purposes (goblin being recognizable to children), but I think we can imagine that refering to goblins could have been a vernacular for the Misty Mt. orcs in particular. That could be a literary way of justifying the difference. So it is correct to say they're the same, but it could be that while all goblins are orcs, not all orcs are goblins. Again, it's fun to speculate. ![]() |
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#22 |
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
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I believe Azalea is right Orcs & Goblins are basically the same race, however the Orcs evolved from Goblins & were larger, faster & more cunning than the original goblins. I am almost certain there is reference to this in The Hobbit (the evolution of the Orcs) but I'll have to check again - will get back to you (unless someone beats me to it).
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#23 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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GamgeeGurl: He actually said crossing orcs with 'goblin-men'. But anyway, that was just in the movie; I don't believe Tolkien ever said orcs were crossed with goblin-men to make Uruks, did he?
I think that the Wargs are very different from wolves. Wargs are a kind of intelligent, more powerful, I suppose in a way perhaps 'demonic' large wolf. Didn't they have a kind of a council with the goblins? Actually, I'm almost certain that it was 'hobgoblins' from the North, rather than orcs. But anyway, I believe that Tolkien said in his letters that Orcs and Goblins were the same, just two different words for them.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#24 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire
Posts: 71
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Alright! Alright! I admit it! Perhaps goblins and orcs are the same things. But I still doubt it...How would Saruman have made Uruk-Hai then? They do speculate that they might have just been tortured wildmen but I doubt it because by then the wildmen of Dunland and Isengard were in alliance. But then again all through Tolkien's works there are usually several different terms for races people, etc.
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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#25 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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I fail to see how orcs and goblins being the same thing makes Uruk-hai (originally bred by Sauron, I believe, not Saruman) impossible.
I think the word you want is 'Hill-men' or something like that. Wild Men I believe refers to Woses.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#26 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a small town in a small state in a...rather overlarge country
Posts: 38
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I, too, fail to see the connection between the synonymousness (not a word, I know) of "orc" and "goblin" and the creation of Uruk-hai.
I have to agree about the Wargs, as well. They seemed to me like sort of intelligent, "demon wolves" as opposed to just any old wolf hanging out in the right place at the right time.
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"We are the people our parents warned us about." --Jimmy Buffett |
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#27 |
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
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Couldn't find the part I was thinking of - seems my memory is getting more & more like a sift everyday
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#28 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
![]() According to dictionary.com, the word you want is 'synonymity'. ![]()
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#29 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire
Posts: 71
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![]() Interesting...Perhaps then orcs and goblins are different. Think about The Hobbit. At that time all the orcs were in Mordor, I believe. So why would they find some in the Misty Mountains then? Unless they were just some scattered ones, that could factor in I suppose.
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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#30 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SC
Posts: 43
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![]() What are ents? and how did orcs and hose wierdlittle green thins come about?
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~Fanëar~ "Aragorn, Le naa belegohtar" "Legolas, Le naa curucuar" ~Omentuva~ |
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#31 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire
Posts: 71
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![]() Ents are the tree-herders that were the thought of Yavanna that Eru made into reality to watch over her beloved forests. They are sort of counterparts to the great eagles because they both were animal/plant spirits sent to watch over MD on the land and in the sky. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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#32 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: somewhere between here and there
Posts: 116
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![]() As to the comment about all of them being related, I know for a fact that Dwarves are not related to the rest. One of the Valar made them when he was waiting for the Elves to come to Middle Earth.
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#33 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Yup, yup, yup!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#34 |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
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Uruk-Hai is another word for orc but in Black speech: uruk stands for orc, and hai for people. so uruk-hai is orc-people.
i think that goblins, orcs, and uruks are all the same race (generically called "orcs"), but there are different breeds of orcs. the hobbits, which wrote The Red Book of Westmarch name each breed with the name with what they originally "meet them". Bilbo knew the shorter breed and named them goblins, perhaps because hobbit ancient history, long time told fireside to the hobbit childs spoke of the war that hobbits faught against goblins. when hobbits enter in the "great history" of ME, Frodo and his companions get to know greater orcs, and they apply them the name they "orcs" as they hear to elves and men. however sometimes the use the term goblin to design those of the mountain breed that Bilbo met. finally, when Pip and Merry hear the dicussion of their captors, learn the words uruk-hai and apply (erroneusly) to the new larger breed.
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