Funny poster - Iraq

[BeardofPants]

*Joins EG in despairing at the state of the world*

[Beleg Strongbow]

Indeed. But take courage, Lord of the Mark, for better help you will not find.

[Hanza]

LOL. Thats a funny poster esp. the small print.

But i too am ashamed at what our world has become. Surely we could have done a better job than this.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Wonderful and clear-cut confirmation of that social pressure I was talking about. Please do keep it up, people: I thought I spotted a hypocrite the other day who was lurking at the edges of our "Points of Light" camp, this side of the meandering stream.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow

By the way, would anyone like to defend the way that Bush has used a heavyhanded approach in Iraq, which MAY have weapons of mass destruction, but is doing almost nothing about North Korea, which has 2 nuclear warheads and is activating manufacturing complexes to make more, breaking UN agreements left and right? (that was a big sentence)

C'mon, Republicans. I know you're out there.

Well I'd hate to tell you this - but it was liberal Clinton that got us into the situation with North Korea. North has ignored the no nukes policy they agreed to - while Clinton turned a blind eye. Too bad Lewinsky came before foreign policy, but I guess he'd rather have a bj in the oval office than deal with North Korea ignoring treaties or Osama Bin Ladin.

We now have a choice with Iraq - either turn a blind eye and in the future deal with a second North Korea - or take care of the problem now. Iraq may or may not have nukes - but given the chance they will develop them. It most likely still has has biological and chemical weapons though.

[BeardofPants]

Iraq may or may not have nukes, they possibly have other naughty stuff, Saddam has thus far been cooperating with the inspectors, the inspectors have so far found nothing (as expected, I guess - either they're not there, or he's hidden them very well), either way, when you have Korea who has affirmed that they have nukes, saying things like they will declare war if the sanctions are imposed, ... well, you have to wonder, don't you?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Iraq may or may not have nukes, they possibly have other naughty stuff, Saddam has thus far been cooperating with the inspectors, the inspectors have so far found nothing (as expected, I guess - either they're not there, or he's hidden them very well), either way, when you have Korea who has affirmed that they have nukes, saying things like they will declare war if the sanctions are imposed, ... well, you have to wonder, don't you?

Okay military geniuses - what would you guys do - when Seoul South Korea is right there, Japan is in striking distance of their nukes and China is an ally of North Korea.

Iraq is the easiest of the two to deal with. It's funny though - you say ignore Iraq now, but in 3 years when they're redeveloped their programs, possibly have nuclear weapons - the same people will be saying "why wasn't something done before". Yeah, sure Iraq is cooperating - just enough to make enough people in the west believe they're the innocent good guys that are being picked on by the big bad US. Iraq is great at propaganda - I suppose you believe him crying again that the UN teams are all US spies too.

[Coney]

Okay military geniuses - what would you guys do - when Seoul South Korea is right there, Japan is in striking distance of their nukes and China is an ally of North Korea.

What can be done? Clinton ignored N.Korea, Bush named the country as part of his "axis of evil"......then proceeded to ignore them as well Now N.Korea has a couple of nukes capable of killing millions and they are calling the shots (hopefully not literally). The situation has been allowed to develop into Catch-22.....no longer does the "my guns are bigger than your guns so-do-as-I-say" argument hold water......especially when a madman has his finger over the little red button marked "nuke". (I'll leave the madman to your own personal choice).

As for Iraq...........I think I'll wait patiently until after the 27th before venturing on that tirade again .

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
What can be done? Clinton ignored N.Korea, Bush named the country as part of his "axis of evil"......then proceeded to ignore them as well Now N.Korea has a couple of nukes capable of killing millions and they are calling the shots (hopefully not literally). The situation has been allowed to develop into Catch-22.....no longer does the "my guns are bigger than your guns so-do-as-I-say" argument hold water......especially when a madman has his finger over the little red button marked "nuke". (I'll leave the madman to your own personal choice).

We're not ignoring him - we're working through Japan, South Korea, China and the UN to resolve the situation. Wasn't that your guys' argument on what the US should have been doing with Iraq before? Should we give North Korea something - after they broke the treaty - in exchange for going back to the treaty? Isn't that the same as giving in to hostage takers? If you end up giving into their demands - you just encourage them to do it again or break another treaty Then they just use that to demand something else in return for them readhering to a treaty that had already been negotiated.

North Korea didn't just develop those two bombs - they've had them for a while. I also recall that when Bush declared them as part of the "Axis of Evil" the world community, including members on Entmoot, argued how could North Korea be put in that category. Well I guess we have our answer. And NO - the US has NOT ignored them since that statement was made. Just because your news didn't cover North Korea - doesn't mean that our news hasn't or that Bush didn't pursue North Korea. Obviously your news suffers from the same thing that American news suffers from - if the problem isn't staring you in the face, then it doesn't get covered.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Oh no, no, no, jerseydevil.
Iraq may be developing weapons-
(and of course they are, don't think I believe their BS for a second) - but North Korea has admitted they do have nukes, and has broken agreements left & right. Why not go after them? Because they don't have any oil.

[Coney]

We're not ignoring him - we're working through Japan, South Korea, China and the UN to resolve the situation.

I'm very aware that the US isn't ignoring them now.....but don't you think that it was sheer folly to brand N.Korea as a part of the Axis of Evil and then ingnore them, and the treaty, to the point that this whole issue has turned from being - N.Korea enemy of the free peoples - to - N.Korea the biggest (potential) threat of nuclear war since the Cuban missile crisis.

Should we give North Korea something - after they broke the treaty - in exchange for going back to the treaty? Isn't that the same as giving in to hostage takers?

I think the situation has gone a little beyond that. N.Korea now has the power to start demanding what it wishes. N.Korea has already stated that "any sanctions will be tantamount to a declaration of war". N.Korea has now entered the world stage where it can play along at the psychological war-games........"dare you (the rest of the world) take measures to stop us when we are capable of destroying millions of lives, do you think we won't fire a nuke if our demands are not met?".
Luckily things haven't degenerated this far.........yet.

I also recall that when Bush declared them as part of the "Axis of Evil" the world community, including members on Entmoot, argued how could North Korea be put in that category.

I'm sure the people of N.Korea thought exactly the same.........say, you don't supposed being outwardly threatened by the US and N.Korea breaking a treaty and developing more nuclear weapons are linked in anyway?............surely not

[Beleg Strongbow]

I'm very aware that the US isn't ignoring them now.....but don't you think that it was sheer folly to brand N.Korea as a part of the Axis of Evil and then ingnore them, and the treaty, to the point that this whole issue has turned from being - N.Korea enemy of the free peoples - to - N.Korea the biggest (potential) threat of nuclear war since the Cuban missile crisis.

Yes. Absolutely.

N.Korea now has the power to start demanding what it wishes. N.Korea has already stated that "any sanctions will be tantamount to a declaration of war". N.Korea has now entered the world stage where it can play along at the psychological war-games........"dare you (the rest of the world) take measures to stop us when we are capable of destroying millions of lives, do you think we won't fire a nuke if our demands are not met?".

Do you feel that this justifies a strike on North Korea to remove its status as a nuclear power? More than a preemptive strike on Iraq is necessary?

[Coney]

Do you feel that this justifies a strike on North Korea to remove its status as a nuclear power? More than a preemptive strike on Iraq is necessary?

I don't think it is possible to conduct a strike upon a nuclear power without there being world-devastating results.

Practically every country that owns nuclear weaponry also has an early warning system that detects a nuclear strike and fires a counter-strike. N.Korea would, likely as not, fire their missiles at China and Russia, the devastation would be incomparable.........if I remember correctly there was a big scare in Russian 4-5 yrs ago when their early warning system detected a (non-nuclear) missile test in Norway and mistook it for a nuke attack........the red-alert went all the way to Boris Yeltsin.......thank the gods he was sober that night

The really grim prospect of this whole scenario is.......IMO......that N.Korea will continue to manufacture nuclear weaponry and eventually they will find a way to sell it. Bet ya wotever that they ain't gonna sell nukes to anyone friendly to the UN

N.Korea needs cash.......if it can't get it in the form of aid from other countries then I have no doubt it will get it by more dubious means.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
Iraq may be developing weapons-
(and of course they are, don't think I believe their BS for a second) - but North Korea has admitted they do have nukes, and has broken agreements left & right. Why not go after them? Because they don't have any oil.

Neither will Iraq eventually, if that lunatic sets his own wells ablaze this time.

Anyway, everybody's focusing on the nukes here, but that's conditioning, as is the cynicism: most of us are still unable to identify and face the new facet of the danger facing us all, as it's so new and frightening.

It is terrorism.

And the urgent question becomes, who's in bed with the terrorists. It is urgent because of the terrorists' ability to penetrate our country (am coming from an American perspective here, obviously, but it's the same for other developed western countries: for example, ask Spain about the ETA (violent Basque separatists), Britain about the IRA, France right now about the chemical “ricin”), etc; to do the unexpected in a manner that causes the most casualties and shock to social, economic and political infrastructures; and then to just melt away. A nuke is horrible, but terrorists can wear you down incredibly easily: remember how easily and quickly the Chief Nazgul destroyed the will to fight in the defenders of Minas Tirith.

Saddam Hussein is in bed with the terrorists. He’s even got a sort of “retirement home” for them, according to the Israeli security’s online public info DEBKAfile, where Abu Nidal was recently murdered by Saddam’s men.

The leader of Korea, on the other hand, is a nut, and a somewhat xenophobic nut, too. He may send them aid and weapons from time to time, but he’s not their bedpartner. Hussein is. That’s one reason why we’ve got to deal with him first.

The second, equally important reason is that he’s the keystone to the whole arch of privilege in the Middle East; if we can accomplish our stated goal of taking him out this time, the whole rotten system will come down, and conditions will then ripen for more democratic regimes to take root and grow and for the festering poison that’s flowing in the streets there now to die out.

The oil is actually hindering all this. Russia is worried, according to reports I’ve read in the English online version of the Moscow Times, that one of their biggest companies (and they need all the money they can get these days, so this company has clout) has recently acquired the rights to develop a big oil field in Iraq (I forget the name of it) and is screaming bloody murder about what they perceive (incorrectly) as America’s muscling in on their territory.

No, we’re still on track this far out from our starting point on September 11, 2001. And it's more important right now to clean up the terrorist breeding ground in the Middle East.

Also, many of the other Arab leaders are concerned that they’ll lose all their nice oil income and perks, and might actually have to pretend to like the masses, if democracy actually starts to flourish in Arab countries. (See above.)

Well, as America said in the days after the attacks, some things are going to have to change around here. And so the world is changing. For the better, over the long run, I believe.

[Beleg Strongbow]

ooh. Good argument. But something must be done about Kim Jong Il.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

But something must be done about Kim Jong Il.

I'm not so sure something hasn't already been done, though it was not obvious: that whole business of Spanish troops, acting on a US tip, seizing the ship bound for Yemen that had Scuds hidden under many cement bags.

At the time, the press pooh-poohed it as a mistake, but the Spanish, who are not exactly known for their patience with being made to look the fool in public or in private, let alone globally, seemed remarkably silent about it in the little I read from them, even the anti-Aznar, socialistic ones in the press. That made me wonder, as did the presence of Spanish special forces in that part of the world in the first place.

Now Kim is just about foaming at the mouth, losing whatever credibility he once had, and a Canada.com article this morning on how world pressure is mounting against him pointedly mentioned that the main source of North Korea's hard currency is missile sales, something that I don't recall was ever publicly admitted before this whole episode.

I have no idea what it's all about in detail, and look forward to learning about it some time in the future when presumably much stuff will be declassified. Certainly it's up to the Russians and Chinese, rather than the US, to contain Kim, which they haven't seemed exactly enthusiastic to do until now, when Russia seems to be making some moves in that direction by offering to build a "peaceful" nuclear reactor in NK. It's certainly debatable, but I suspect and hope that there's more to all this than meets the eye, and the US has played it in such a way as to force the Russians and perhaps the Chinese to keep Kim in line.

[Firekitten2006]

Back to the here and now. My 40+ yr old history teacher has just been called to active duty. He retired from the military almost 2 years ago, after serving in the reserves for several years. But see heres the interesting part. Before he was in the reserves, he worked in Communications, Intelligence, ya know that sort of thing. Now heres my question. If they are taking HIM, what are the odds of them calling back many more people who are younger, were in Desert Storm, and therefore have experience in this area? My dad is one of those people. Although he is in his late 30's the prospect of him getting called back is growing day by day. It doesnt help any that he was a tank commander either. I am hoping to God that everyone comes to their senses. I hate war. I hate the very idea of war. Why cant we all get along?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Firekitten2006
Back to the here and now. My 40+ yr old history teacher has just been called to active duty. He retired from the military almost 2 years ago, after serving in the reserves for several years. But see heres the interesting part. Before he was in the reserves, he worked in Communications, Intelligence, ya know that sort of thing. Now heres my question. If they are taking HIM, what are the odds of them calling back many more people who are younger, were in Desert Storm, and therefore have experience in this area? My dad is one of those people. Although he is in his late 30's the prospect of him getting called back is growing day by day. It doesnt help any that he was a tank commander either. I am hoping to God that everyone comes to their senses. I hate war. I hate the very idea of war. Why cant we all get along?

I'm sorry about your teacher and your dad, if he gets called up, too. I'm also sorry that they didn't finish the first Gulf War by getting rid of Saddam Hussein; it would have saved everybody so much trouble.

As for your question, I can only tell you that in Buddhist lore, it was said to have been asked by none other than the king of the gods himself. The conversation is recorded in the sutra, Sakka's Questions and I happened to be studying it this weekend, which is why your question stood out.

In brief, Buddha answered that we can't get along and must "live in hostility, violence, rivalry, ill will, with those who are hostile" because every living thing is fettered or trapped by envy and stinginess. These arise from an underlying sense of things as dear or not dear to oneself, which in turn is caused by desire, and the root for that is thinking, which in turns bubbles up from a sense of self-reference (see note 1 in the reference above): such things as "being/not-being, me/not-me, mine/not-mine, doer/done-to."

It's all very detailed in the sutra, but anyway, note that he didn't say everybody has to become a Buddhist for there to be peace in the world, rather, that one must overcome the eternal "I."

So the short answer to your question is we can't all get along because very few people are interested in overcoming that eternal "I."

However, if this path towards peace appeals to you or interests you, that's wonderful, though it will be very difficult. It was a soldier (though it could have been Buddha) who said: "The important things are simple. The simple things are hard."

Perhaps a next step, if you do want to go on this way, might be to look at those things that are so troubling and see if and how they might be rephrased without the "I." (One suggestion might be to see it from your teacher's and/or father's point of view, which could come from talking with one or both of them about this, if possible, but only you can find the best way to proceed from here.)

[Earniel]

I'm posting this here because I think it fits with the original topic. It's a Cartoon my sister send me.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I'm posting this here because I think it fits with the original topic. It's a Cartoon my sister send me.

I've seen that one before......still good tho'

So in the real world Sauron does find the ring.......damn