Genocide in the Two Towers

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Where does it say that he wanted to wipe them ALL out? References please.

I'm sure that both Sauron or Saruman would have gladly accepted some turncoat strawheads.... Wormtongue.

Where did I say he? I said They as in the Dunlanders, as in the sworn blood enemies of the Rohirrim.

But yeah, they'd probably save some of the women for sport. :P

[Nibs]

Along the same line as olsonm's last statement, it sounds like a quick way to describe the occurrences in the movie. He could explain exactly the motives for the attack on Helm's Deep, the role of the Palantiri, what places men are attacked, etc., etc.... or just say it's about genocide. As a quick generalization, I think it's a good choice of words, though it doesn't capture the heart of the story.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, this is what generally happens when you put a kiwi and a camera together in a car. He/she will talk absolute crap.

Heh heh heh . . . that just sounds funny. And cute.

I agree. It was about dominion, not genocide. Sauron wanted to control everyone, not wipe every single one of them out. Of course, he'd kill the ones he had no sway over...

[markedel]

Sauron even offered terms to the West-not nice terms...but still terms.

[jerseydevil]

JP distorted most of the book - but when he said that the book was about the genocide of men, I had to laugh. It was about the dominion of men and enslaving them. What a dumb a$$, as Red on That 70's Show would say.

[Rána Eressëa]

I don't think he was being a dumbass - I think he was being a smartass.

[samwise of the shire]

Genocide is in LOTR actually. Sauron wants absolute dominion over Middle Earth and everyone in it...maybe he's paranoid they'll kill him, maybe he wants to kick some Valar butt(yeah right) who knows. But how can Sauron (an absolute evil being) have dominion over good subjects who are constantly trying to rid Middle Earth and themselves of his evil? He CANT...so he kills the good people in Middle Earth and subdues those that survive and those he can subdue...those who dont bend get their blocks knocked off.
And to tie that in with the movie. Peter Jackson and COUNTLESS cast and crew said that the main thing they're trying to get across to the audience is the contrast between Good and Evil, the fact that Sauron hates good, that he wants to control all of Middle Earth, he needs the Ring to do it, and that there are folk out there that are good (therefore Sauron's natural enemies) and who intend not to let him have the Ring...so absolute dominion over ME and genocide go hand in hand.
So it may not BE the extinction of man the Movie Sauron has in mind...it may be the extinction of all that's GOOD.
Cheers until DEC 18th, then we'll have some neat stuff to talk about.
Sam
PS. One last thought. Orcs do sort of have the habit of over doing it when thier leaders say "Go out and kill those people". Didn't the orcs in FOTR want to kill Merry and Pippin and find something of worth to them? The masters might not want thier future subjects killed but I think that orcs will kill just for fun...it seems they take joy in slashing growing things whether they lie in thier path or not...something like that. So maybe the extinction of man will come whether Sauron wants it to or not

[Rána Eressëa]

PJ directly said that Sauron and his minions wanted ALL men dead - that they wanted ALL men wiped off the face of the earth. He didn't say just the good ones . . . which is why we are mocking him.

[Nibs]

I agree that Sauron's aim would be enslavement of all who oppose him, except that all of the parts in TTT and RotK where the humans battle show them facing insurmountable opposition from innumerable armies of orcs. In that sense, I'd have to agree that genocide is a good word to use.

Probably just another matter of opinion, and this is just mine.

[Rána Eressëa]

But you can't rule over anyone if you kill them all, and Sauron wanted rule. So that's why I just think the term genocide in general isn't a specific way to deal and/or explain the situation at hand.

[Nibs]

Yes, but what I was saying is that, hypothetically, Sauron would have ruled any one that would rather serve him than perish. Like the Easterlings (right?). However, he didn't even get to that phase in his plan for the rest of Middle-Earth. Therefore, because PJ was actually referring to the events in the book as portrayed in his movie, I would also say that it's about genocide. He's not talking about the motives of the characters. He's talking about action.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nibs
Yes, but what I was saying is that, hypothetically, Sauron would have ruled any one that would rather serve him than perish. Like the Easterlings (right?). However, he didn't even get to that phase in his plan for the rest of Middle-Earth. Therefore, because PJ was actually referring to the events in the book as portrayed in his movie, I would also say that it's about genocide. He's not talking about the motives of the characters. He's talking about action.

In LotR the book it was about the enslavement of humans - not the utter destruction of them. I also think he used the word genocide for the same reason he added more action to the movie - he exagerates everything.

[Nibs]

The action that happens, my friend, is not enslavement. That would have been the next step, had not the Rohirrim come to Gondor's aid, etc., etc. What actually happens is a mass destruction of humans in epic proportions! How could you not call that genocide?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nibs
The action that happens, my friend, is not enslavement. That would have been the next step, had not the Rohirrim come to Gondor's aid, etc., etc. What actually happens is a mass destruction of humans in epic proportions! How could you not call that genocide?

Where anywhere does it mention the "mass destruction of humans in epic porportions" in the book? And how could enslavement be the next step if mankind is wiped out by Sauron's army?

You seem to be saying that war is an act of genocide. If that is the case then Germany wasn't the only one that practiced genocide during WWII - the allies did by fighting Germany's army.

In all actuality - the only side that was really attempting genocide in the book were the 'good" guys. They were for the utter destruction of the orcs and other "evil" creatures of Middle Earth.

[Aeryn]

"Genocide is in LOTR actually. Sauron wants absolute dominion over Middle Earth and everyone in it...maybe he's paranoid they'll kill him, maybe he wants to kick some Valar butt(yeah right) who knows. But how can Sauron (an absolute evil being) have dominion over good subjects who are constantly trying to rid Middle Earth and themselves of his evil? He CANT...so he kills the good people in Middle Earth and subdues those that survive and those he can subdue...those who dont bend get their blocks knocked off.
And to tie that in with the movie. Peter Jackson and COUNTLESS cast and crew said that the main thing they're trying to get across to the audience is the contrast between Good and Evil, the fact that Sauron hates good, that he wants to control all of Middle Earth, he needs the Ring to do it, and that there are folk out there that are good (therefore Sauron's natural enemies) and who intend not to let him have the Ring...so absolute dominion over ME and genocide go hand in hand.
So it may not BE the extinction of man the Movie Sauron has in mind...it may be the extinction of all that's GOOD. "

Sorry didn't know how to quote.

I agree about that extinction of good. Yet again you are saying the it's over those who he cannot hold sway over with his snakedtongue. well the men of rohan or gimli or someone on Mithrandir side (the confrontation at isengard) started to be poisoned by his voice even if they were good, so I don't think that's comleteing correct but not completely off base either.

Also about the Orcs and over doing the killing of men, I think that eentually the men (and women and children) would all die anyway because orcs EAT men, and orcs would be sort of like there enslaved rulers and such so they could actually eat anyone thay liked any time they liked.

I hope this makes sense and isn't to long. I can't find anyone in any live threads.

[BeardofPants]

gen·o·cide Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group


Now, if you can show me that Sauron intended, and planned the mass etermination of a particular type of people, as opposed to wiping out those who stood in his way, then fine and dandy. I'll even dance a naked jig. In the meantime, I'll just eye you all suspiciously.

[Aeryn]

I doubt HE meant it from the start, but (the bad guys) had orcs on their side...who ate humans!

[BeardofPants]

That's not genocide, that's survival of the fittest. Besides which, if they geniunely wanted to munch on humans, they'd be pretty stoopid to do it to extinction, cos then they wouldn't have any more to eat after they ran out... Also: eating people does not count IMO, as planned extermination.

ex·ter·mi·nate Pronunciation Key (k-stûrm-nt)
tr.v. ex·ter·mi·nat·ed, ex·ter·mi·nat·ing, ex·ter·mi·nates

To get rid of by destroying completely; extirpate

[Aeryn]

2 comments,
okay first you are stalking me! I LOVE stalkers!! lol anyway, I would like to ask you to please burn you dictionary. It makes me feel like I'm inferior. I'm just a poor teenager

[BeardofPants]

No, don't worry, not stalking, just subjecting you to my rather opinionated, pointless, inane viewpoints. I don't stalk... unless you happen to be a good looking guy with a nice bum.