10-09-2002, 07:27 PM | #21 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-09-2002 at 07:28 PM. |
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10-10-2002, 06:36 AM | #22 |
The Dude
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back to the thread question ummm Aule made the dwarves the way they were because they were coming into a dark world with Morgoth and they had to be strong and tought and i guess there stature was summit to do with that
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10-19-2002, 05:10 AM | #23 |
Sapling
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As Lefty said, how does the new theory of men-orcs fit. When the Noldor host enters Beleriand they fight and rout a compnay of orcs. What are these then.
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10-19-2002, 04:33 PM | #24 |
Elf Lord
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I now deeply regret ever mentioning the Men-from-Orks idea on any topic. Disregard it.
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10-19-2002, 08:51 PM | #25 |
AngAdan
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"I now deeply regret ever mentioning..."
I am glad of it being posted. The revision would have made much better reading. For All such incosistancies and and overweirdness (Like the Flat earth created before the sun and Moon) I just keep in mind that even within it's millieu, the Silmarrilion is not history as we understand it, but is a compilation, 7000 years, after the fact of mostly Oral traditions, which grew in the telling, and Ideed were written by a primative people, with limited understading of their world. |
11-07-2002, 07:41 AM | #26 |
Hobbit
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) My view on the issue:
The first Orks came into being because Melkor created them himself out of stone or clay or something, like Aule did with the Dwarves. Yet these Orks didn`t had there own thoughts and would only move when there master (Melkor or Sauron) would order them to by fixing there mind on them. Then the Elves came and Melkor took some and used them for interbreeding with his Orks (bit jusy story ). Thereout came a new sort of Ork, one that had it`s own thoughts and could correspond to that. Although they were still in some wais bounded by the will of there masters, wherefor they hated them (as said in lotr). It were these Orks that fought the first battles of Beleriand wherein Feanor died. Next there came man, the sort of being wich are mostly alike the Orks. I suppose Melkor took another bunch of them and with them he made different kinds of Orks. Those descended from the Elf-Orks and men and those that were mixed up with the orriginal stone-Orks whereof the Goblins could have make there offspring. Later Saruman made a last Orksort, the Uruk-hai, yet these kinds of Orks had already walked upon Middle-Earth in the first and possibly second age but did either dimminish or shrink or died out during the long ages followed after Sauron`s disapperance. |
11-09-2002, 05:29 AM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
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An interesting and valid theory, for the most part. I don't agree with it, but there's nothing wrong with it and it is moreover an attractive idea, until you get to Goblins and Uruks. Goblins and Orks are the same thing, and Uruks were made by Sauron thousands of years before Saruman became corrupt. They are pure-Orks, just a superior soldier-breed. This is a fact and you can read all about it in The Lord of the Rings (make sure you check the Appendices). The movie has really confused people.
Quote:
Or to go further back, "Of the Darkening of Valinor" owes much to Aldudénië, a story written by the Vanya ElemmÃ*rë, that was evidently passed on with the Ñoldor to Middle-earth. The Vanyar like all the Light Elves lived with the Holy Ones, and must have, so said Tolkien, accurate knowledge where astronomy is concerned. Especially the Vanyar, I would say, as many of them lived on the feet of Taniquetil, and they were beloved of Varda the Sublime, Varda the bearer of the hidden Light, Varda the Kindler.
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11-09-2002, 04:54 PM | #28 |
AngAdan
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Recall that writing was invented by the Elves, seperately in Aman and in Beleriand after the great journey, The elves that made the journey and a generation or so after them, which would emcommpass much of the leadership and the great of the eldar into the first age, thus learned literacy as an adult education. thier first written modes of expression would have recording oral songs, with all that form's tradtions, among which literal unebellished history was not likely one. What they wrote would likely have much more in common with Homer's work, than with Shakespear's or Gibbon's.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 11-09-2002 at 04:58 PM. |
11-09-2002, 11:07 PM | #29 |
Elf Lord
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What are you getting at, Lefty?
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11-09-2002, 11:25 PM | #30 |
AngAdan
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That we should veiw the Silmarillion as heroic poetry rather than a history of the First Age, somewhat more "real" (in its world) than The Illiad is in ours, but less less real than LoTR in its world or a history treatise in ours. Anything too fanciful or left filed in it can be consider poetic license, and not everything therin has to make sense in the 'real' Middle Earth.
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11-10-2002, 02:02 AM | #31 |
Elf Lord
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In what way is The Silmarillion poetry?
I disagree with you. I think The Silmarillion -- the ideal Silmarillion --- should be regarded in the same respects as The Lord of the Rings. The published Silmarillion does not hold nearly as much weight to me. The Silmarillion was supposed to be as real to it's own world as The Lord of the Rings. It didn't turn out that way, but never got The Silmarillion as it was meant to be.
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11-12-2002, 03:20 PM | #32 |
AngAdan
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IIRC, JRRT in his 1951 letter to the Mr Walden, cited in the preface to the sencond edition, states that the SIL was significantly mythological, more so in its earlier parts, and less so in its later parts, particularly after men entered the story.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 11-12-2002 at 03:22 PM. |
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