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08-26-2001, 03:01 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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*chuckles*
He did come back without a Silmaril. That's why he's Beren Camlost, the Empty-handed. Carcharoth ate it with Beren's hand, remember?
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08-26-2001, 03:03 PM | #2 |
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You know what I mean. If all three were still in Morgoth's crown, then he wouldn't have felt nicer toward him.
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08-26-2001, 03:51 PM | #3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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That is true, he did not come back with the Silmaril. Thingol did feel mercy for him when he saw what Beren went through trying to get it. He had lost his hand which is how the great wolf got the Silmaril. I will give Thingol credit where he deserves it, but that is not much. IMHO, the only reason he felt any good feelings for Beren, was that he finally realized how much this man loved his daughter. To do all that he did to gain Thingol's approval was a true testiment of Beren's love and loyalty to Luthien. However, that does not undo the harm that was done at Thingol's bidding.
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08-26-2001, 08:50 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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Thats right Sister!
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08-26-2001, 09:26 PM | #5 |
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Thingolians?
Am I the only guy who likes Thingol? He did no worse than Feanor and 5 of his 7 sons.
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08-26-2001, 09:29 PM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
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No, I didn't know what you meant Finmandos, but he accepted Beren before he knew his story, and when he did he was filled the more with wonder. I didn't mean to be mean
Quote:
And you are right, it doesn't undue what evil came about of Beren's Quest (put on him for his death by Thingol). But let us also not forget the words of the Elder King!: 'Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.' He was not talking about Thingol of course, but this still applies. Yet Námo's addition does not: 'And yet remain evil.' Say rather that it (perhaps) shall 'become good'. You say much of all the evils and sorrows that came about by this quest, but you say very little of the good and the joys. Beren did get the Silmaril, didn't he? If he hadn't it (the retrieval of the Silmaril) would never have been achieved, save after the War of Wrath. Actually, no, not after the War of Wrath. There would not have been a War of Wrath, because Eärendil would never have been able to sail into the West. I don't doubt that the Doom of Mandos and the Malice of Morgoth would have prevailed. There would be no hope for the enemies of the Enemy. When Melkor would have been assailed by the Valar cannot be determined, but be assured it would not have been until even greater evil had come to pass. Even assuming Lúthien and Beren were allowed to marry by Thingol, and the ennoblement of the Younger Children took place, the granddaughter of Beren (Elwing) could not have 'inherited' the Silmaril. Morgoth would have won. So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice. You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment.
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08-27-2001, 12:38 AM | #7 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re: Thingolians?
Quote:
Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 08-27-2001 at 01:10 AM. |
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08-27-2001, 12:54 AM | #8 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Frankly Inoldonil, I dislike Thingol most because of Finrod, but there is many other things as well. I fail to see any good that came out of the events brought about by Thingol. For instance, Beren and Luthien did not live happily ever after. When they were permitted to return from death and to live together in Middle-earth they lived "without certitude of life or joy"(The Silmarillion) To make a defense for him by saying this good or that good came from that bad is like saying, yeah, I caused the death of my daughters lover and my nephew and some other guys and my daughter grieved herself to death from it, but hey if I hadn't done that, we would have never been helped by the Valar, so guess what, I did all this bad stuff, but it saved the day. Sorry, but that is just not how I see it.
Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 08-27-2001 at 01:09 AM. |
08-27-2001, 12:08 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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I had to look up the 'w/o certitude of life or joy' quote, then I had to look up 'certitude'. As I'm sure you know, certitude is the state of being certain.
You twisted the passage a little. That part comes from the time when Lúthien must choose her fate: Quote:
Anyway I think you've missed my point. My last paragraph was: You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment. Or again: So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice I am not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after. As Tolkien said of Gollum, the ends do not justify the means. Gollum brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- from treachery. He was wretched, the poor thing. He destroyed the Ring on accident. That does not make him good. That does not make what he tried to do to Frodo good. We should rather be glad that Sam pitied him at last on the slopes of the Mountain (but too late for Gollum's good). Similarly Thingol in a way (more indirectly), rather loosely I stress, brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- by way of an attempt to kill off Beren. We should rather be glad that Beren succeeded in his quest, and we should praise him. Unlike Gollum however, Thingol repented, but that does not make it right. I agree with you. No, I'm definitely not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after. I am pointing out the good things that happened after because you seem to prefer to ignore them It's fun to debate with you though!
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08-27-2001, 12:57 PM | #10 |
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I agree SGH...the end doesn't justify the means. After all Inoldonil, the same thing can be said of Feanor, if he and his sons hadn't taken the "oath" and led the Noldor out of Aman, then the end of Morgoth wouldn't have occured either.
No, I can't defend Thingol, he was perhaps the most bigoted person in Beleriand. He thought himself (and his people) above both men and dwarves. Of men he declared "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, ...." To the Dwarves after they demanded the Nauglamir he said "How dare ye of an uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienan years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?" Thus it was his PRIDE that killed him. That being said, I still believe him to be the greatest of the Elven Kings. Would I want to be his friend? Probably not. His ally? Most certainly. A King's first thought should be for his kingdom and his people, and Thingol seemed to keep that in mind. But the question was not the "who was the greatest, but who was the best. My vote goes to Turgon. He kingdom ended because he was kind to Hurin and Huor. If he had forbidden them to leave, they would have died of old age there and perhaps his kingdom would have remained hidden. He was also less proud than any other king...being the only one to seek pardon and aid from the Valar. HE I would want as friend AND ally.
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08-27-2001, 01:11 PM | #11 |
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If Thingol had not demanded the Silmaril from Beren, then Doriath would never have fallen. Morgoth was the only one who could have broken the Girdle of Melian.
This brings up another elf: Maeglin (cue ominous music). He, I believe, was the only elf who was truly evil and did nothing good. It was his fault Gondolin fell, not Turgon's love of H&H. Of he had never disobeyed Turgon, then who knows how long Gondolin would have lasted? Turgon was prideful sometimes, such as his refusal to listen to Ulmo, but overall he was one of the better kings.
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The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Last edited by Finmandos12 : 08-27-2001 at 01:13 PM. |
08-27-2001, 01:20 PM | #12 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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I haven't chose to ignore the good in Thingol. I admit that he changed toward men after the quest of Beren. As I said before, he even fostered Turin, and loved him as a son. When Turin accidently caused the death of Saeros, Thingol imediately pardoned him and sent Beleg to find him and bring him back. As I point out agian though all of this good that we are speaking of happened after the fact, and although any good came from the quest of Beren, I would not atribute that to Thingol just because he put the events in motion. I am not trying to paint him as a evil character, but one more of selfish and foolish pride, not evil.
You know, I don't like Celeborn much either. He reminds me of Thingol. He was of Thingol's people. How ironic that they both marry two of the greatest ladies in the mythology. I will never understand that. Yes I know about Edith and J.R.R. and that Beren and Luthien were fashioned from them. As for Beren and Luthien's happiness after their return to Middle-earth, we really don't know. The text does not Focus on them much after. They are secluded and never seen by others I think. I am glad we agree to a point, and debating with you has been most enjoyable for me as well. |
08-27-2001, 03:04 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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So you're taking into account all the good stuff that happened and all the good stuff in him, before and after the Beren business, but you don't care much about that and would rather mind the other side of the coin, is that it?
Oh we agree completely about Thingol, but I think it's just that my glass is half full and yours is half empty. Anyway I can like a character whether they started or ended good or bad in any sense, although I might be saddened or uplifted etc. on the way. That's probably one of the sources for the rift in our views. I daresay Curumo turned out worse than Thingol, but I like him, and pity him. I always root for him in the Voice of Saruman, wish he'd just give Gandalf the keys, but he can't. I like him anyway. Would you care to suppose Beren and Lúthien were unhappy in their final days?
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08-27-2001, 04:02 PM | #14 | |||
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Quote:
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08-27-2001, 10:59 PM | #15 |
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Elves never really did understand the Atani and the Gift of Iluvatar. Gildor Inglorion even said that mortals are none of their concern, and are not their study. Even Arwen only understood Men and pitied the Numenoreans when Aragorn was dying, thinking them wicked and foolish.
I daresay the same applies to Thingol: until Beren came along he didn't understand Men at all. I think Thingol learned more about Men then, and stopped despising them. He let the people of Haleth dwell in Brethil, and took many Men into his service. I think if the proper circumstance had arisen, he may have come to respect the Dwarves too. If he hasn't already that is; Menegroth was wrought with the help of Dwarves. THe scene with the Nauglamir has nothing to do with Elven pride but with royal wrath: Kings do fly into rage when denied something that is believed to be their right. And the Dwarves were cheating. I'd be angry too. |
08-27-2001, 11:39 PM | #16 | ||||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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I Quote:
I Quote:
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08-28-2001, 05:31 AM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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Hi,
I think of Thingol was a loving father, but a very jealous one. I don’t think he had give much thought about the consequences of sending Beren in an impossible quest. Likely, he believed Beren would give up immediately, and then would return to the wild, defeated. It isn’t probable, in my view that he had thought Beren would turn to Finrod for aid (if he knew of Finrod’s vow in the first place). This Take us to another question, what was the nature of Thingol’s prejudice against humans? It is possible that he had heard rumours about the betrayal of the Avari by the human tribes in the East. (Some of the people of Doriath were, in origin, Nandor, escaping from the lands east of the Blue Mountains, and they could have heard this rumours from the Avari further east).
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08-28-2001, 09:36 AM | #18 |
Sapling
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Elven-Kings
Thingol was a great king, though he was cruel to Beren, he then repented when Turin came to Doriath!!! And as for the my fav, he was undoubtly Finrod Felagund, he was wise and all his deeds were valiant, and his death defending Beren was more than tragic, it touched me deep.......
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08-28-2001, 11:10 AM | #19 | ||
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Quote:
As for knowing of Finrod's vowel, of course he knew. Beren showed Thingol the ring of Barahir. Quote:
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08-28-2001, 01:10 PM | #20 |
Elven Warrior
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I forgot about the Noldor. I think that the main characteristics of Thingol were jealousy and pride. When anyone challenged him, he hated them. He liked Beren because of what he did for HIM. When other men did valiant things, he couldn't care less.
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