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#21 | |
Kraken King
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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#22 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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#23 | |
Kraken King
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![]() BUT, for the sake of argument let's say that this incident is irrefutable. Why dont we open up a new vein of debate and wrap our minds around why the animals (which are capable of all that is listed in the article I posted) are interested in protecting some mammals and not others.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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#24 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I think the behaviour of helping others that seem helpless, in the case of Bottlenose Dolphins, from whales to humans, logically occurs when truly the helpless are helpless and the dolphins intervene on their behalf. It most likely is a rare thing they do, but one wouldn't expect Bottlenose Dolphins to intervene in cases where another animal (which is in 'danger') can pose a danger to the dolphins themselves. These dolphins being intelligent they most likely can differentiate between cases of when they should and should not intervene. Fascinating though. And I'm quite ready to accept the fact that Bottlenose Dolphins have from time to time intervened altruistically or near-altruistically. *But its late so its good night for me ![]()
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 10-26-2008 at 10:04 PM. |
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#25 | ||
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the sea
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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#26 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
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Oh, I meant that it's good to eat food from diverse sources, but we don't really do that. However, we do eat food from three different kingdoms, which is impressive considering how different fungi, plantae and animalia are. Sorry.
I think there is enough discussion in this thread as well as in the science thread to warrant two separate threads.
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#27 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#28 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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#29 | |||
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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While protecting the swimmers, encircling around and around, and at the same time coaxing the great white, the dolphins must have sent signals to one another to organize the entire endeveaour. Marine biologists have found that dolphins can emit signals to other individuals meant specifically for that particular dolphin. Quote:
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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#30 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Heck, I'd swim for my life too if I jumped in sea and saw a great white (if I haven't died of shock beforehand) but that doesn't automatically mean my life would be in any real danger. The only action the dolphins undertake in the first post is circling and splashing, no other interaction with the shark was mentioned. Unles you use 'they must have' to mean 'they did', in that case I recommend reprhasing that part. Quote:
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#31 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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![]() And when I write "What then happened was crazy. Suddenly this dolphin comes speeding towards the two of them and is really close to hitting them and then dives into the water. The man instinctively looks down in the water to see where it went and, to his surprise and shock&awe he sees a great, white shark swimming just beneath him, within touching distance. It then dawns on him that what the dolphins are really doing is protecting them!" it's pretty clear what is happening. The mere fact that one of the dolphins suddenly came speeding towards them (dolphins are fast, agile swimmers) and that a great, white shark is 'within touching distance' (that's the length of a person's arm) should give a good idea of the significance of the dolphin's actions. I think it's great that there are questions asked about this whole situation, but it seems to me that your underestimating what great white sharks are known to do when they meet humans. They don't merely smell your feet and tickle you. There have been many, many violent attacks off of the Australia/New Zealand coasts (especially involving surfers), as well as in South Africa (Durban is a renowned city for attacks on surfers), Argentina, etc (these are the places that I at least know of). Scepticism is nice, but given the situation I painted here (dolphins encircling human beings violently, as I point out, for 45 minutes tells you there is something going on).. ![]() What I find interesting is what four swimmers were doing crossing that expanse of water, great white territory, without some sort of supervision or person standing on land. Seems risky. Added: What remains a mystery though is how dolphins have come to decide that encircling human beings when sharks are near is a good tactic. Is it a way of thinking wired into their brain or is it, which would be remarkable, a conscious decision they collectively agree on?
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 10-27-2008 at 09:21 AM. |
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#32 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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![]() Do you think people would risk swimming with them if you got eaten right away? I know a great white possesses some eerie cutting equipment but they do not go out their way to prey on humans. So they don't always handle humans with care, I don't think they even can with those teeth but that doesn't implicate any malice towards us either. One can quite logically survive an encounter with a great white, even if it shows some remote interest in you. Otherwise the number of shark attacks by great whites would be far greater than it is now. A shark attack, depending on the species, is actually a relatively rare occurrance.
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#33 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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This is a post by Inked in the Theology IV thread, which I'll answer here.
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I want to try to make this thread as scientifically sound as possible, so although I'm not a great admirer of quoting newspaper articles when it comes to precise science, this example does provide an example of real-time evolution by mutation of genes: http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2007/06/...t-antibiotics/ Here's the relevant portion and I've highlighted important wording: "The microbes that killed an unnamed patient seven years ago accumulated 35 separate genetic mutations during a 12-week hospital stay, allowing the bugs to thwart every antibiotic doctors threw at them, a painstaking scientific investigation has found." Questions? ![]()
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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#34 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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This is ridiculous Earniel.
Do you want to argue with me over the fact that you are unable to infer that the bay I mentioned is deep or not? Or for the fact that you are unable to understand that when I write that it is a great, white shark that is somehow isn't large? Or that you accuse me of seeing Jaws movies and thinking all shark attacks lead to deaths? Or saying that I somehow think shark attacks are very common?
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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#35 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#36 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm sorry you feel this is ridiculous, I only wanted to discuss animal behaviour and maybe defend the sadly tarnished reputation of the great white.
I'm not arguing over the fact that I did not noticed that the bay was supposed to be deep. (I did not, mea culpa.) But I did not see the documentary, so I can only go on what I read of your account of it. But knowing whether the situation was in shallow waters or deep ones is a factor in interpreting the shark's behaviour. A great white shark is IMO not the same as a great, white shark. The great white shark is - to my knowledge- the correct English name of the species charcharodon carcharias. I do not know of any other species that is referred to as white shark, but English is not my mothertongue, so there may well be one. So no, I will not automatically assume that a great white shark is also a large specimen. I don't think this is too far-fetched, really. I did not say you said shark attacks were common, I only said that generally they are a rare occurance. But if you had no intention of insinuating that great white attacks are common, could you please explain how then I am to interpret this quote of yours: Quote:
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#37 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I don't appreciate the way you've been arguing because it seems your more interested in contradicting what I'm writing than actually being curious.
If you were really candid about knowing more of the details you ask about them. It's quite simple. An obvious example is that you in your first post ADMIT that a great white is large: "And a great white is of course a very big fish!" Later on suddenly size becomes an issue and your asking me to point out whether the shark was big after all! You speculate about why the dolphins trash the water but you give no reason for what 45 minutes of violent trashing in the water then means if it isn't to protect the swimmers. You speculate again and again whether the shark was hungry or not, when that is besides the point. The point of the entire story was that a great white was, at one point for sure, just underneath the lifeguard and only went away when a dolphin came speeding towards it. It's the dolphins behaviour that is the point of the story, not whether this particular white shark was going to eat them all. Because I point out that shark attacks happen and deaths do occur, and that surfers have been known to be particular targets, you infer that I've seen too many Jaws movies, hint that I think they always eat people and that I think that they are mindless eating machines.. It's fascinating to see so much speculation and sarcasm in the space of a few posts concerning an incident you have no details about except the story I presented!
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#38 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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EDIT: Re-opened after 24h cool-down period.
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We are not things. |
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#39 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#40 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Couple of points regarding sharks and dolphins:
Point one: Lets reiterate here that Great White sharks do NOT tend to favor humans as far as their diet and the vast majority of attacks tend to be cases of mistaken identity. We have many more cases of great whites bumping a human or swimming around them and checking them out to see what the heck they are then actual cases of attacks. Point two: Before we star making dolphins out to be some kind of super intelligent cerebral creatures with human emotions and such lets look at WHY this behavior may have occurred. Remember that altruism exists in nature even with species with very little intelligence. Ants come to mind. So altruism does not necessarily equal “empathy”. Be careful of anthropomorphisizing… And dolphins may exhibit this behavior because the idea of having blood in the water and a possible feeding frenzy is a danger to themselves and (especially) their young. So here comes a couple of clumsy slow plodding loud splashy humans swimming through the ocean attracting the attention of a shark. Perhaps to the dolphins the idea of scaring away the shark (and/or protecting the humans who clearly cant protect themselves in water) is worth the risk (dolphins very rarely get taken by sharks. They are much too agile) when the alternative is a blood bath that attracts sharks far and wide and gets them in a frenzied feeding craze. Just a possible speculation…
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