remorse for bad guys?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Believing in free will is correct, but only to a certain extent. Distinctions must be made. In freewill vs. Predestination, Catholic doctrine is closer to (true) Calvinism than to, say, Methodism. I'll see what I can dig up, and PM/email you.

thanks

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Believing in free will is correct, but only to a certain extent. Distinctions must be made. In freewill vs. Predestination, Catholic doctrine is closer to (true) Calvinism than to, say, ....

... i thought you were going to say 'Hobbes' then ...

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Landroval

If Melkor was just an instrument in Eru's hand, cf Ainulindale, then how can your statement be true? Melkor as doing Eru's will is even more clearly stated in the BoLT versions.

the big problem that I have with Melkor is that he was created the greatest of the Ainur but he was not lord of them. That title and job belonged to Manwe. I think that is why he was just plain peeved!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

... i thought you were going to say 'Hobbes' then ...

Bah. Hobbes is too much of a pessimist.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

the big problem that I have with Melkor is that he was created the greatest of the Ainur but he was not lord of them. That title and job belonged to Manwe.

I don't think his primary goal was supremacy over the Ainur, but over the Children and Arda - that is what led them to war.

[The Telcontarion]

Well the silmarillion did say he wanted to be the master of his peers. I think it said he wanted them to give him fealty, was the term used if I remember correctly.

[brownjenkins]

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.

Basically, in creating Melkor, Eru created a being that was too much like himself but was not willing to treat him as such.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Bah. Hobbes is too much of a pessimist.

really?

wot hobbes from calvin an hobbes?


..as opposed to the philosopher ...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.

Basically, in creating Melkor, Eru created a being that was too much like himself but was not willing to treat him as such.

Yes, I agree with you. Eru dousn't seem to favour people with freewill, like Melkor, Feanor or most of the Edain.

He gave them the option himself but grows angry when they use it.

[Landroval]

Well the silmarillion did say he wanted to be the master of his peers. I think it said he wanted them to give him fealty, was the term used if I remember correctly.

Not exactly; here is the passage I think you are reffering to:

Originally Posted by Of the enemies, Silmarillion

For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realms of his peers.

The point in question is ruling Arda.

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.

I don't know why you say Eru was angry at Melkor - as I pointed previously, he was but an instrument.

Eru dousn't seem to favour people with freewill, like Melkor, Feanor or most of the Edain.

How come Eru didn't favour the Edain? They are his children, his purpose is their joy. Even Melkor and Feanor may be said to have had, at times, the times of their lives .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

How come Eru didn't favour the Edain? They are his children, his purpose is their joy.

That's why he drowned his children like unwanted kittens by millions?

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That's why he drowned his children like unwanted kittens by millions?

Your poor kittens enslaved their peers, tortured them, offered them as sacrifice to Melkor, slew each other in madness, were heedless to any kind of message ... as I stated previously, they were most likely unredeeemable in their corruption. Just as Eru reduces the lifespan of all Men when they started worshipping Melkor so to see who is their real Lord, he also saves the numenoreans from an evil they were not able anymore to overcome (maybe not even if they willed it). As Tolkien stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #212

A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained

[Gordis]

Yea... right... saving by killing.

But just don't tell me that "his purpose is their joy"

Eru killed almost all the numenoreans, likely his "favourite" human race, he abandoned all the rest of the Edain who remained in ME during the Second Age to Sauron's darkness.

His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such.

I think I have reason enough to say that Eru didn't favour the race of Men.

[Landroval]

Yea... right... saving by killing.

I presume you have some better way of dealing with the most corrupt and oppressive society known at that time; would you like to share it with us?

likely his "favourite" human race

I wasn't aware some human races were more favourite than others to Eru.

he abandoned all the rest of the Edain who remained in ME during the Second Age to Sauron's darkness.

Seeing that everything depends on every moment on Eru (cf Atrabeth), your statement is hardly the case.

His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such.

Could you be more exact? If you are reffering to the numenoreans, I can assure you a lot of people saw their dissappearance as a gift; most likely, they did too, after their eyes were opened, sort of speaking.

I think I have reason enough to say that Eru didn't favour the race of Men.

Then you seem to miss the point of evil in Arda; suffering and toiling against it is part of the condition of Men, their part in devising the beauty of creation.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such.

Yeah, because 99.9 percent of Men A) are not stupid and B) know EXACTLY what the gift entails after passing out of Ea.

[Tulkas]

i dont feel sorry for morgoth and sauron, but feanor, i GUESS, has a purpose for his actions due to his fathers death and morgoth stealing the silmarils, but he could of done it in a better way so i have no remorse for the bad guys.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

now Sauron....as was mentioned, he loved order (not evil in itself) and was for the most part seduced by Melkor.

But I think he loved order for the sake of control, not peace. And you're only seduced by things you want to be seduced by; that's why that thing can seduce you!

Originally Posted by the Telcontarian

Fëanor was indeed good, but was corrupted and made desperate by morgoth's lies and murder of his father; how crazy would you get it that happened to you, who's father was first in aman to have their blood spilled in violence.

Feanor will have a lot to answer for, but I also think he'll have a lot of slack given to him because of the terrible tragedies that happened to him.

Originally Posted by Landroval

If Melkor was just an instrument in Eru's hand, cf Ainulindale, then how can your statement be true? Melkor as doing Eru's will is even more clearly stated in the BoLT versions.

But I think the difference is that Melkor was an unwilling instrument. Just shows how much Eru rocks!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But I think he loved order for the sake of control, not peace. And you're only seduced by things you want to be seduced by; that's why that thing can seduce you!

but did he not want to help the Elves of Eregion in the beginning of his "instruction"? I dont' think he always wanted to control things. I guess that's just my opinion

[Rían]

It seemed that he wanted to help them in order to use them later on, but maybe I'm reading in too much - it's been awhile since I read that!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It seemed that he wanted to help them in order to use them later on, but maybe I'm reading in too much - it's been awhile since I read that!

hmmm...maybe....but, it does say that he was sorry for what he did and desired to repent and receive his judgement but he was too ashamed of what he had done so he fled.