Middle-Earth what if...?

[jammi567]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history?

[Gordis]

Jammi, it is really off-topic. I advise you to open a special thread for this question.

I am sure Landroval will have much to say on the topic

[jammi567]

how is that question off topic?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Then again, this statement reffers to the obligation of the valar to remain until the end - yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.

Sure, agreed. But why would he unnecessarily break a rule that he himself made? Because that is what Tolkien told Robert Murray (the recipient of this letter), and no one else? Tolkien may have felt compelled to give this explanation of Gandalf’s return due to Mr Murray’s position in the church. Who knows? I don’t really have a problem with Eru taking an active role, it seems logical, but Gandalf leaving the world is unnecessary, illogical, and contradicts the rule Eru made.

[Gordis]

I fully agree, CAB. I am sure that what is written in the Letters is influenced A LOT by the personality of the recepient. Sometimes it even contradicts the conceptions of the books. I would prefer not to rely on the Letters SO much.

Jammi: the topic of the thread is what if Saruman took the Ring. The question you posted last is on a very different topic, so it is better to open a special thread, IMO.

[Landroval]

But why would he unnecessarily break a rule that he himself made?

I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future ( ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

To give a fuller account:

For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to ‘the Rules’: for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The ‘wizards’, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ — no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: ‘I was the enemy of Sauron’. He might have added: ‘for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth’. But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ‘Naked I was sent back — for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future ( ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

I find the "unnecessary' label quite appropriate. Why could Glorfindel be ressurected and enriched in powers in Arda marred, while Gandalf couldn't be?

I believe this "passed out of time and space" to be only a poetic description of death. He was unconscious, that is all. I will never believe that an Ainu was allowed to get out of the Circles of the World and then return.

And what if he gets some incling about the fate of Men and tells the others?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future ( ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

You already answered this question, in this very thread.

Originally Posted by Landroval

yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CAB

You already answered this question, in this very thread.

I asked you about motivations, not about abilities. You still have the burden of proof concerning why this was an unnecessary act. Is there any precedent of unncessary actions by Eru? Not that I know; but there is a precedent of Eru removing another fea from this world; do you second guess Eru on that one too or do you prefer to ignore it and challenge only this case? Or are you second guessing the proffesor's sincerity? Either case, you need to bring some proof, otherwise this is simply a personal opinion.

[Landroval]

Why could Glorfindel be ressurected and enriched in powers in Arda marred, while Gandalf couldn't be?

That's a false comparison;Glorfindel is an elf and all elves who are reimbodied are increased in power; maiar on the other hand don't have this perk. Sauron lost power with each reimbodiment.

I will never believe that an Ainu was allowed to get out of the Circles of the World and then return.

You wouldn't?

Originally Posted by Turambar and the Foalókë, The Book of Lost Tales II

Then Úrin departed, but would not touch the gold, and stricken in years he reached Hisilómë and died among Men, but his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men. Yet it is said that when he was dead his shade fared into the woods seeking Mavwin, and long those twain haunted the woods about the fall of Silver Bowl bewailing their children. But the Elves of Kôr have told, and they know, that at last Úrin and Mavwin fared to Mandos, and Nienóri was not there nor Túrin their son. Turambar indeed had followed Nienóri along the black pathways to the doors of Fui, but Fui would not open to them, neither would Vefántur. Yet now the prayers of Úrin and Mavwin came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Túrin and Nienóri entered into Fôs'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.'

Originally Posted by The Shaping of Middle-Earth

When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwë will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Túrin shall be beside him; it shall be Túrin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Húrin shall be avenged.

Originally Posted by The Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Quenta

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Eärendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwë and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Túrin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

[jammi567]

yes, but what you're quoting there are primitive ideas, all of which he eventually abandoned.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by jammi567

yes, but what you're quoting there are primitive ideas, all of which he eventually abandoned.

I disagree; the Last Battle is reffered to even in Myths Transformed (HoME X) and in People of Middle Earth (HoME XII).

[jammi567]

the point is that it wasn't included into the published sil. i'm not dismissing all ideas from the HoME, just that particular one.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by jammi567

the point is that it wasn't included into the published sil.

This version, published 4 years after Tolkien's death, only reflects Christopher's selection of scenarios, not Tolkien's. Seeing that appears in almost every stage of creation, I don't have a problem with the Last Battle.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I asked you about motivations, not about abilities. You still have the burden of proof concerning why this was an unnecessary act. Is there any precedent of unncessary actions by Eru? Not that I know;

I must be missing something here. Eru=God. God is all-powerful. Yet Eru must remove Gandalf from the world before he can change him? This makes no sense. I suppose the only proof you will accept is a direct Tolkien quote. Sorry, I don’t have one. All I have is very simple logic. And by the way, if Eru didn’t bring Gandalf to him to make the change, which is what I am arguing, then there would be no unnecessary act.

Originally Posted by Landroval

but there is a precedent of Eru removing another fea from this world; do you second guess Eru on that one too or do you prefer to ignore it and challenge only this case?

I would only challenge the Gandalf case. Removing Melkor is an entirely different and much more reasonable matter, which is supported by much more than one quote intended for one person. Also, I am not questioning Eru. The only way I would be is if I thought that he did bring Gandalf to him. I don’t.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Or are you second guessing the proffesor's sincerity?

You jump to this kind of accusation far too quickly. That is not what I meant. Done here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

That's a false comparison;Glorfindel is an elf and all elves who are reimbodied are increased in power; maiar on the other hand don't have this perk. Sauron lost power with each reimbodiment.

Quote please - about all. I know only of Glorfindel being increased in power.

Maiar are becoming weaker after each self-reimbodiment, not when they are re-imbodied by Eru.

I think it is time to close this discussion. It is turning in rounds.

[Landroval]

I must be missing something here.

I agree; I talk about motivations and you about abilities. Even if one person can do anything, certain courses of action naturally provide quicker, longer lasting or better results for the doer, in and of themselves. If you have some evidence that resurecting him in Arda better suits Eru's whatever purposes, please provide it. So far, the only motivation I know Eru has is "the joy of His Children". Nothing about Gandalf being resurrected outside Arda Marred contradicts that. I know I would like to meet the Creator face to face, there hardly is a greater grace.

You jump to this kind of accusation far too quickly. That is not what I meant.

You will excuse me if I feel this way when I read these refferences:
"is supported by much more than one quote intended for one person"
"Because that is what Tolkien told Robert Murray (the recipient of this letter), and no one else? Tolkien may have felt compelled to give this explanation of Gandalf’s return due to Mr Murray’s position in the church. Who knows?"

Quote please

Originally Posted by Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring

When the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented, and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendour of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.

About Sauron, please reffer to Akallabeth (where he lost power to appear fairer ever again) or letter 211, concerning the time needed for his own bodily rehabilitation.

[jammi567]

why shouldn't Eru take Gandalf to him to make him stronger. because, afterall, 4 of your other members have either turned to evil, or have forgotten why they were sent there in the first place, so you're the one that has all of middle earth on your sholders, and Eru, the all seeing can see this. therefore, make him stronger so he can cope with this lonely task better.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quote, Landroval. Now I know what you refer to.

Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring

When the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented, and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendour of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.

They are enriched emotionally and gained more experience and knowledge. But the quote doesn't say that their power was increased.

Originally Posted by Landroval

About Sauron, please reffer to Akallabeth (where he lost power to appear fairer ever again) or letter 211, concerning the time needed for his own bodily rehabilitation.

I know about Sauron. But, in contrast to Gandalf, he was self-ressurected. Therfore he lost power. Gandy was resurrected by Eru, thus boosted and upgraded.

[jammi567]

but then, maybe the power is the wisdom they had from their previous life.