04-13-2004, 10:24 PM | #21 | ||
Elf Lord
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04-14-2004, 01:40 AM | #22 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Pardon me for having a sincere and quite good question about a dating method! *sigh* Honestly, you seem to be treating evolution like some sacred thing that can't be questioned! Thank goodness that some people think like brownie, who said "i've heard plenty of attempts by creationists to debunk scientific theories... which is a good thing btw, theories are meant to be challenged". Now there's an attitude that I respect - a true scientific attitude, IMHO. Personally, I think my question was an excellent one , and I really would like to hear some opinions on it from all sides.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-14-2004, 01:59 AM | #23 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And as far as the rest of the paragraph, what does it say? The next sentence is : "But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions." Um, ok - well, he has no idea how it might have happened, according to the rest of the paragraph, yet asks us to take on faith that "But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions."? A nice opinion, but certainly not a scientific answer, or even a scientific theory. Personally, I put his "answer" on par with a "a miracle happened!" He gave NO answer; nor did he give ANY type of theory. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-14-2004 at 02:01 AM. |
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04-14-2004, 02:05 AM | #24 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Or maybe you're just talking about the Christians that mindlessly accept creationism. I would agree, and I would also add that people that mindlessly accept evolutionism should consider other possibilities, too, or at least not swallow things without thinking them through first. I hope you agree
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-14-2004 at 02:06 AM. |
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04-14-2004, 02:16 AM | #25 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I guess I'll start with that it sincerely troubles me that the pre-dating of samples does not trouble you, GM. As the lab apparently said on their website, "We cannot analyze samples expected to be younger than 2 M.Y.". So if a geologist gets a rock sample and sincerely believes, by index fossils or other reasons, that it's older than 2 MY, and submits it to the lab in question, it apparently will come back confirmed with a very old age. What if his original age estimate was wrong, GM? What if it was wrong? He'll never know. He'll never know. And that's really sad. And you see nothing wrong with this? And as far as the question : "Considering the statements at the Geochron website and the lowest age limitations of the K-Ar method, why did Austin submit a recently erupted dacite to this laboratory and expect a reliable answer???" Well, personally I don't think he expected a reliable answer, and he was darn right. I think he hoped to point out a serious flaw in the thinking behind some dating methods. And he did. And I would hope that true scientists would admit to this flaw, in the interests of true knowledge. Pre-dating is seriously disturbing, IMO. And I hope scientists in this area have the guts to seriously look at the issue.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-14-2004 at 02:19 AM. |
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04-14-2004, 02:58 AM | #26 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lief - I just noticed you had said origin of life - my question isn't really on that - but I'd love to have it answered, anyway, if he has time.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-14-2004, 03:44 AM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
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04-14-2004, 07:58 AM | #28 |
The Blobbit
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What do people think of the idea that the seven days may be a metaphor? Who would relish the prospect of explaining to people 2000 years age about the forming of proteins from enzymes etc etc?
Also I read somewhere (I've forgoten where) of a doctor who suggested a metaphorical link between stem cell work and the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. Surely if God is the supreme order and science is the search for order, there should not be this conflict.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-14-2004, 08:51 AM | #29 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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this is the essential difference between science and religion... in science all theories are just that... and a good scientist must admit that theories are not facts (and yes, there are bad scientists who don't like to admit this) many, though not all, religious people claim that their beliefs are fact if he wants to claim that creationism is a science, he must be willing to accept the possibility, no matter how small he may perceive it, that his theory is wrong
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-17-2004, 09:39 AM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
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A few weeks ago I helped a friend take a truckload of scrap metal to a junkyard- after we had weighed the load, I happened to be standing on the truck scale, which showed me to be weighing 400 lbs. ( not true, I hasten to add), because the scale was not geared for such light weights. Should I have sent them an air-mail to weigh, and then claim their scales were worthless because they couldn't give me an accurate reading?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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04-17-2004, 09:41 AM | #31 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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04-17-2004, 02:33 PM | #32 |
The Blobbit
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I repeat my question from ^.
Also has anyone heard of St Anselm's 'proof' of the existence God. It goes thus: 2 axioms: God is the best thing imaginable. Good things which are real are better than good things imagined. Therefore God must exist as if he didn't exist there would be something imaginable better than him. It is claimed that the success of this 'proof' is that, supposedly, two people never agree on where it goes wrong. Which seems funny really. I personally feel it is flawed in that it only proves the existance of the concept of God... it seems a definition more than anything.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-18-2004, 12:25 AM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
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04-18-2004, 12:31 AM | #34 | ||
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By the way, our meeting with him did not work out. He had to cancel. However, I am seeking to procur his email address. On the bright side, through that means he may be able better to answer your questions. |
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04-18-2004, 12:42 AM | #35 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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However, the standard procedure for dating rocks DOES utterly and completely depend upon an initially correct estimate, which may very well be WRONG. This was clearly shown in the Mt. St. Helens rock case. Do you still have no problem with this? Not in the least? GM, you've always seemed intellectually honest. Can you honestly say that you still have no intellectual problem with this dependence upon an initial estimate being correct?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-18-2004 at 12:47 AM. |
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04-18-2004, 06:23 AM | #36 | |
The Blobbit
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All I was asking really was if you were God how would you set about telling people who had no knowledge of how the world would be need to be created, complex biology etc? Would you explain in terms of biology, or would you use a metaphor? Also, can someone explain to me what biology believs happened at creation? To my understanding no-one knows what the difference is between a group of chemicals which could function and one which actually does. I would really like to know, I'm prepared to try and put my head around anything ludicrously complex in an explanation!
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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04-18-2004, 10:32 AM | #37 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-18-2004, 12:09 PM | #38 | |||
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04-18-2004, 12:30 PM | #39 | |
The Blobbit
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Ok touchee both of you. Yeah, the question didn't really help, both sides still answer based on their starting view. What I was getting at was that, IF it were the word of God, it wouldn't be explaned perfectly. But that point has just be proved void.
I also re-pose my question: Quote:
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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04-19-2004, 10:01 AM | #40 | ||
Elf Lord
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I assume all Christians are creationists in the sense that they believe God created the universe, and would further hazard a guess that they would have to believe that evolution is guided enough to produce Humanity in its Fallen state and Christ the Redeemer in human form. Quote:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html#continuum
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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