03-09-2004, 12:12 PM | #21 | |
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is upbringing, or possibly the lack of, a factor at all?
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03-09-2004, 12:19 PM | #22 | |
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In the specific case of Eru and Melkor, I would suggest that Melkor had the capacity to make right choices, but persistently did otherwise. In one of the other threads (GM forum) I mention the 'Christian' viewpoint of evil as NOT being OPPOSITE of good, but a deviation from good - or an 'incomplete' good, however slight. This is pertintent to our discussion not because I am a Christian, but because JRRT was... and seems to have carried over many Christian principles into his Middle-earth mythology and stories.
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03-09-2004, 01:35 PM | #23 | ||
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a third option would be that eru is somewhat neutral and just created and then waited to see what would happen... if this is the case, there is really no blame to be laid... things just are what they are
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03-09-2004, 01:49 PM | #24 |
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Originally posted by Valandil In one of the other threads (GM forum) I mention the 'Christian' viewpoint of evil as NOT being OPPOSITE of good, but a deviation from good - or an 'incomplete' good, however slight. This is pertintent to our discussion not because I am a Christian, but because JRRT was... and seems to have carried over many Christian principles into his Middle-earth mythology and stories.
_________________________ Yes, Tolkien shared C.S. Lewis's view of evil (see "The Great Divorce"). From "Letters" #183: "In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of the other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
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03-09-2004, 02:48 PM | #25 | |
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I believe Eru is modeled very much on the 'Christian' concept of God. I think he WAS conceived to be all-good and all-powerful. He even wove Melkor's 'strayings' back into his theme - as we Christians believe that God can take what is evil, or meant for evil, and work it into His Good Will.
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03-09-2004, 04:19 PM | #26 |
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i think you are probably correct on JRRTs intentions... though i would prefer to think that all-good and all-powerful creator would have forseen melkor's reaction to some extent and done a bit more to help lead him down the correct path in the first place... though i am also assuming that this creator is "all-knowing", and maybe he is not
eru's actions are left largely, if not completely, unexplained to his children... and if you choose to create beings with free will, i think you must expect some of them to react negatively to what could easily be seen by them as a restriction upon this free will you have given them... not so much out of "evil", but out of fear of the unknown
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03-10-2004, 02:36 PM | #27 | ||
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03-10-2004, 02:47 PM | #28 | |
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With this in mind, I think JRRT incorporated a few, but not all of the characteristics from the Judeo-Christan mythology, but expanded upon them. Therefore, if Eru existed in the void where only he existed, it is possible that when the Valar were created the propensity to do Evil could have come from Eru himself. |
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03-10-2004, 03:40 PM | #29 | |
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God DOES work evil into good. I was intending to say that God works things toward His Will... I added the word 'Good' to describe 'His Will'... not to be using the term 'good will' - so sorry if I was unclear. The Bible tells us that God works evil into good. Why - even the crucifiction... Satan was quite certainly at work in those who opposed Jesus and sought His destruction... but, know what? God worked all that into His Plan of salvation for mankind! God is not really in a struggle for souls with Satan. Satan has led mankind astray, and God has reached back out to mankind anyway... giving us the choice to return to Him. Talk of a struggle between the two is off the mark... we don't view them as equal opponents or God as being two or three or even ten times as powerful as Satan... God is infinitely more powerful than Satan! In His Forebearance, God withholds His Hand, so that mankind may be saved. A bit inconclusive about whether God cast Satan from Heaven. Some passages indicate that possibility, but they don't exactly spell it out - and some make other conclusions from the texts. Yes, Melkor is quite representative of Satan - or at least similar to him - more than he is similar to any 'mythological' dieties. However, God HAS allowed Satan to inhabit the earth and Satan WAS allowed to take on physical form (remember the serpent in the Garden of Eden?). I agree with some of the rest of what you say... that JRRT didn't EXACTLY parallel Eru and the way he works with his creation to God and the way He works with His Creation. However, he did seem to largely base Eru on God. I disagree that Eru 'planted' evil in those he created. Similar to how we Christians believe about things, I think being given the capacity for choice allows one to choose to do wrong... it doesn't in itself create the wrong which can be chosen. Because remember that in our view, wrong is not necessarily 'opposite' of right... it can be merely a slight deviation from right. Moral responsibility for the choice is on the chooser, not the creator - in either realm! And I don't buy that Eru was a 'bad parent' either! Remember that any analogy breaks down at some point - and this may be the point where the 'parent analogy' breaks down. And... if Melkor ALSO had the capacity to chose to obey - again, is HE not the one responsible for choosing NOT to obey?
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03-10-2004, 04:08 PM | #30 | |
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I don't know what's the textual basis for this in the Book, but at least I've read a passage (I think it's from Isiah) where St. Michael laments about the falling of Lucifer (=Satan) who had been the brightest between the servants of God. That passage made me think that they were probably very close "friends", just as Manwe and Melkor were brothers in the mind of Eru. I think that biblical conception also passed to the Ainulindale. I'll try to research some text for this.
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03-10-2004, 04:20 PM | #31 |
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Fat Middle, that reminds me of Paradise Lost by John Milton which was an awesome read.
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03-10-2004, 06:19 PM | #32 | ||
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I've found the text I was referring to, but is seems I was wrong about St. Michael, there is no referrence to him in the text (I think it was just me that thought in him while reading that). In fact there is direct referrence to de devil either, but being a prophecy it has been traditionally understood so. Quote:
Anyway, when I read that the image in my mind is Manwe speaking about Melkor
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03-10-2004, 06:31 PM | #33 | ||
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I've found another reference to this in Ezekiel. Here the prophet is speaking about the King of Tyre, but it is traditionally understood as to Lucifer:
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03-11-2004, 05:58 PM | #34 | |
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i understand the free choice argument from a christian perspective... but i don't understand how you could hold someone responsible for a choice if you don't first explain right and wrong, along the the reasoning behind it i don't necessarily see eru as a bad parent... in fact, i see him involved so little i would almost say he is not a parent at all... more of a neutral observer unless absolutely necessary
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03-11-2004, 06:10 PM | #35 | |
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03-12-2004, 03:14 AM | #36 |
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The Valar were made by Eru already fully formed in who they would be. Melkor would not be considered a child, IMO.
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03-12-2004, 11:08 AM | #37 | |
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how could they be expected to fully realize the implications of any course of action they might take? we learn by what we are taught and by experience... i see no "teaching" on the part of eru... and in fact, he doesn't seem to even really reprimand melkor for his actions... which leads me back to the idea that eru wished to remain more of an outsider to his creation and just see what happened
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03-14-2004, 10:02 PM | #38 | |
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Re Iluvatar and the Christian God - IIRC, JRRT says in Letters that they're one and the same (ref. coming up) Re responsibility : I think it would have been pretty lousy of God to create beings with free choice (and thus the possibility of willfully choosing wrong) w/o taking responsibility - but He DID indeed take responsibility. Any guesses/opinions how? Re rebuking Melkor - Eru did do this, IIRC (ref. coming up) EDIT - changed some wording, was v. terse due to lack of time...
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03-22-2004, 12:16 AM | #39 |
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Rian, you are so terse.
There are differences between Eru and the Christian god. Even if JRRT says in Letters that they are one in the same, he has definitely chosen to create a new character different from the Christian god. Though I do see similarities, I do not see a cloned character. |
03-22-2004, 10:50 AM | #40 | |
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