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#21 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#22 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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I will respond to all the new posts soon, er, probably this weekend. I really enjoy the debate, but to be any use at it, I need to do some research. (Or I could do my assignments... hm...)
For the "Distribution of Resources" question, I will get my old notes from Conservation class. There's some really interesting stuff in there, though in some aspects they are incomplete. I don't know anything about the Iran-Iraq war, so I think I'll just stay out of that one. Though I do criticize the UN of today Gaffer, I do support an intergovernmental agency, either a reformed UN or another organization.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#23 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Perhaps there's something from this debate which can illuminate the UN discussions.
To my mind, the UN represents a mechanism for Internationalism, where countries get together to discuss their differences and try to work them out without the use of force. Opposed to this is Unilateralism, which might be fine if we had a benign superpower which always acted in the best interests of the world. If we accept the argument (which I don't) that the 80s were "a different time", and that this justifies the West supporting a mass murderer (who, at this time, carried out his genocide of the Kurds and used chemical weapons while prosecuting a war on Iran), does that not underline the relativism of Western policies? That is, we might claim to be motivated by "spreading democracy" or "freeing repressed peoples", but in fact the evidence is that such motives are likely to change according to political circumstances. So, the West is NOT this benign dictatorship. Given that, is it not all the more important to have an international forum in which differences between countries can be worked out? Of course, it is very far from perfect, but it's better than unilateralism. Further, given the international scale of the problems we (as a species) now face, international relations are all the more important. Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-21-2004 at 05:36 AM. |
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#24 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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The thing is - the UN discusses endlessly. They hardly ever solve any of the worlds problems. They never prevent world conflict. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-21-2004 at 05:58 AM. |
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#25 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Some points of information:
1) Iraq attacked Iran 2) Saddam was a bad bastard right from the start, and was using chemical weapons and committing genocide WHILE we were supporting him. |
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#26 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling...
Posts: 330
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You know, someone once said that democracy is the least worst form of government. I think the UN is the least worst form of international co-operation. It will never be perfect, but its the best we're gona get!
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"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so, with Pity." "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." "Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him." |
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#27 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Agreed. It has been pretty bad at times, but it won't get any better if we just withdraw from it.
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#28 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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As for the UN - I think pulling out of the UN is perfectly fine for the US. They rely too much on us and criticize us every chance they get. They come running to us for our help when they need it. I think the US should just treat the UN as an allie and nothing more. We should not be a member - and just let the UN be what it wants to be - and that is a rogue nation hideout.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#29 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Ruins of Arnor
Posts: 892
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GET U.S. OUTof the U.N.! Used to think they were just some right-wing whackos, but maybe they had it right all along!
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"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
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#30 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#31 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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In the spirit of The Jersey Devil-bump
(How stupid are we?)
This oughta upset everybody: How they vote in the United Nations: Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records: Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time. Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time. Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time. Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time. Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time. Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time. Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time. Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time. Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time. Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time. Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time. Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time. India votes against the United States 81% of the time. Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time. Mauritania votes againstthe United States 87% of the time. U S Foreign Aid to those that hate us: Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States, still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid. Jordan votes 71% against the United States And receives $192,814,000 annually in US Foreign Aid. Pakistan votes 75% against the United States Receives $6,721,000 annually in US Foreign Aid. India votes 81% against the United States Receives $143,699,000 annually. Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes (and gasoline). Pass this along to every taxpaying citizen you know. And send to your congressman, who should be disgraced but couldn't care less. Disgusting isn't it? Wake up America. |
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#32 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Well what do you know, I actually agree with spock, how ever maybe not for the same reasons. The UN is the devil.
But then you have to understand if the US does not pay for these countries, then the neocons won't have leverage with them to put forward their facist agenda. That's all it's about. And those countries that vote against the US know this, to some extent. I think it's ovbious.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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#33 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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Spock, you posted these numbers in the Muslims thread a while ago. I said it then and I repeat it now - I think it's more correct to say that it's not really the Muslim countries that tend to vote against the US, it's the US that often votes against the whole world.
It is true though that for instance Europe and America are on the same side more often than the Arab world and America. Insidious Rex posted a link in the Muslims thread concerning the verification of how this. I'll post it here. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/unvote.asp Quote:
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#34 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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What would actually worry me more is the assumption that because one's country does the humane task of providing other countries with aid, that those countries must also 'repay' their benefactor by agreeing with them. It turns aid into bribes, just as Japan does to get more votes in the IWC. It's a base practise. There are limits, of course, as everything is relative, but it does give food for thought.
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#35 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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....well the *bump* worked
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#36 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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But it is also instructive to learn that some people don't regard aid as a humanitarian imperative but a utilitarian one. Many of us already knew that of course, but it's nice to get confirmation.
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#37 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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![]() many ill gotten and ill thought out Roads contain bumps ... say you the U N is bump free? (wotcha ya corruption-laZy gaffer!! ![]() best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-30-2006 at 04:31 PM. Reason: whaddya bleepin think? typo's galore ... |
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#38 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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Of those 42 cases where the US was supported by 5 or fewer countries, a fair number of them are on issues of birth control, children's rights, women's rights and gay issues where the US finds itself aligned with Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe.
The money for Egypt and Jordan are pay-offs for making peace with Israel; the money for Pakistan was a pay-off for supporting the US against the USSR; now it's a pay-off for their support in the GWoT, laughable as it is. |
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#39 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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laughable?
seems un-funny with the innocent children and women folk slaughtered daily in Lebenon. (though i take your meaning GM ![]() best BB ![]() |
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#40 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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I think it also illustrates why the UN is politically impotent: member states mostly regard it as a branch of their own foreign policy. So the people who moan the loudest about the UN because it doesn't do anything are actually part of the problem because they tend to be same people who complain about it not doing what their own particular country wants to do.
I would like to point out that the UN does a LOT of really good technical work in key areas such as education, health and development for poorer countries. Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-03-2006 at 06:45 AM. |
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