02-28-2005, 05:36 PM | #301 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-28-2005, 05:52 PM | #302 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm reviewing the thread, trying to catch up, and came across this again:
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My official response, however, is this: IMO, you owe me an apology for those insults. Whether or not you give me one is up to you, obviously. But I won't let those insults stand without comment. The only time I let insults go by is if I think a greater good can be achieved by ignoring them. That is NOT the case here. And further, I repeat that I have NOT been taught "to think of sex as the source of the ultimate source of all of humanities sins". Please don't assign thoughts to me that I don't have Are those perhaps your thoughts? I would also like an apology for your "try to be rational" line, unless you can give evidence that I have been consistently irrational. And disagreeing with your opinion is certainly not acceptable evidence! You might say that was a general "you" and not one specifically directed at me. If you try to claim that, then it is YOU that are being irrational, for apparently you think I should be able to read your mind! When you quote ME, and make a statement immediately after using "your", a rational person would certainly conclude that you were talking to me. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-28-2005 at 05:53 PM. |
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03-03-2005, 02:17 PM | #303 | |
Quasi Evil
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WARNING: Long article ahead...
Sorry to post such a LONG article. I realize its annoying when people post articles that go on for more then a page but I figured Id make an exception in this case because this article is so relevant to what we have been talking about in this thread for a while and it comes from a different angle which is refreshing. And it introduces some information that we havent yet had here. Apparently its not simply an either/or argument when it comes to sex education…
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 03-03-2005 at 02:19 PM. |
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03-03-2005, 02:21 PM | #304 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-03-2005, 02:22 PM | #305 | |
Quasi Evil
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One thing I found interesting to note is that the problem with sex education is that its intended to counter the natural state of our species which is to have sex (and children!) during your teens. In fact for the vast majority of our history (who do I sound like now ) human females have generally coupled at a fairly young age and motherhood by 17-20 was considered standard. Its just recently that we have begun to purposefully delay this natural state of things because of education requirements and job requirements. We want a different kind of life that means holding off our instinct to breed for a while. So the approach we need to take to do this shouldn’t be one based on “tradition” at all. But on radical change really. Via education. I also noted that it seems in the Netherlands where they have “frank sex education in schools and open attitudes to sex” more so then either the UK or the US we still see that teenagers there have “less casual sex and are older when they first have sex compared with the UK [and the US]”. Why is that? Apparently theres something going on that both the Sex Ed people and the Just Say No! people are missing. It shows us you CAN have success by emphasizing solid sex education. But what else is going on exactly? And how sad it is that its simply a political/religious fight in our country (the US). Its REALLY disgusting to see that the Bush administration actually removed the data from studies showing the success of proper sex education. And you people call yourself moral!!!! They are basically KILLING kids so that they can push their religious agenda regarding sex. Absolutely beyond the pale! Simply disgusting in my opinion. Shouldnt this be ABOUT the kids and NOT about simply promoting a political or religious agenda?! *deep breath* It seems the ideal form of sex education is NOT either extreme but the careful middle ground where you have abstinence genuinely presented to kids as an option so that it breaches their consciousness but ALSO giving these kids the tools they need to be able to operate in the often dangerous world of sexuality. This is shown by the fact that those kids who were ONLY told not to have sex till they were married and then were told lies about how ineffective condoms were, were just as likely to get sexual diseases as those kids who were given an “aggressive” sex education with no abstinence teaching at all. Why? Because when they found themselves in a situation where sex was eminent they didn’t have a clue about at least protecting themselves. And they had sex without any protections. Or they didn’t use the protections correctly. And furthermore, its not simply teaching the mechanics. Its backing it up with programs designed to prevent the very social disadvantages that lead to teen prenancy. Sports clubs. Homework help groups. Job promotion. Etc. That should really be all a part of a proper over all sex education program. So food for thought. We should neither be throwing condoms at them and telling them to be sure to have sex with these nor should we be throwing bibles at them and telling them to never have sex because its evil unless yer married.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-03-2005, 02:25 PM | #306 |
Quasi Evil
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And if yer a teenager and actually read that whole thing I think we dont need to worry about YOU having any sex any time soon.
Sorry about the length again...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-03-2005, 07:24 PM | #307 | |
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I havent really heard much about the sex ed programme they are teaching in australia now but i assume its still the fully detailed programme that i recieved which goes through everything pretty thouroghly...
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03-04-2005, 10:09 AM | #308 |
Elf Lord
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Good post IR, despite the length which wasn't bad. Since I have been excoriated on threads for posting CDC data, I am happy to see that yours has been well tolerated.
Perhaps the best combination is broad education and an emphasis on abstinence. I know of no study that suggests anyone anywhere at anytime has died from abstinence. Pimples maybee....... !
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-04-2005, 02:26 PM | #309 |
Elf Lord
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Well, if we all over-indulged in abstinence the consequences would be severe.
Everything in moderation, including abstinence But anyway, reliability of data would be a function of the method of collection and reporting, not the source. * sigh * totally agree about the CDC thing. But that's been known about for a long time. Why didn't the democrats shout this kind of thing from the rafters? |
03-04-2005, 04:25 PM | #310 |
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TG, that would be because the Democrats were too concerned with the need for the proliferation of their bases in the process that they didn't want anyone to know due to the effectiveness of the 70% programs .
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-05-2005, 11:56 PM | #311 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-06-2005, 01:48 PM | #312 |
Elf Lord
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IIRC, when the withdrawal decision was made, some data had already been collected which showed they weren't effective. One might question the motives of a person drawing attention to that and making the assumption that it had been censored, but to assume that it wasn't being censored would seem to be rather naive.
Inked, sorry but I don't understand your reply. Anyhoo, the evidence seems pretty clear: that education programmes in general don't seem to work all that well, and that would seem to apply to abstinence-only as well as others. What does seem to work (in terms of reduced STDs and unwanted pregnancies) is giving people access to contraception. I'd like to ask (generally, not to anyone in particular) how much effectiveness matters to this question. If we wanted to reduce STDs or unwanted pregnancies, we could just put some drug in pop tarts or something so that teenagers wouldn't get the horn. Clearly, that would be immoral. So there's always some sort of trade-off between morality and "effectiveness". My question is: how far does that go? If a person's moral code states that it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage, then I can well see that that person would have a problem with anything other than abstinence-only education. Whether it works or not, it would seem that such a person would want to encourage people to behave in a moral way. So where's the dividing line? When would it be acceptable to encourage immoral behaviour? |
03-07-2005, 02:41 PM | #313 | |
Quasi Evil
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Is it just coincidence that these studies (composed of “external experts” by the way… not “liberal groups”) went against what the Bush administration has been aggressively pushing for their political agenda? Is it even more coincidence that this same administration poured millions of dollars into “sex education” that has mislead and lied to kids in the name of that very same agenda? Open your eyes I say. There was no reason to censor legit data maintained by what SHOULD be an IMPARTIAL government service agency WITHOUT giving a real reason for the sudden move.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-07-2005, 04:20 PM | #314 |
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The Gaffer says "My question is: how far does that go? If a person's moral code states that it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage, then I can well see that that person would have a problem with anything other than abstinence-only education. Whether it works or not, it would seem that such a person would want to encourage people to behave in a moral way. So where's the dividing line? When would it be acceptable to encourage immoral behaviour?"
The proverbial nail on the head, Sir. In the USA where school funding is via tax dollars and public, the government's alignment may be a moral one or not as the govetrnment chooses. The problem becomes the militancy of the various groups involved in such. There are advocates of "value-free" education who contend that since all morality is relative in their view, no moral teaching should be done at all. This of course elevates their value to the highest pinnacle: morality is relative. The argument is obvious bosh. Then there are those who think Caesar should be "in bed" with specific values of libertinism and who regard any restriction on sheer hedonism as somehow interruptive of their rights (presumably to coitus as in coitus interruptus)which they regard as a dreadful imposition of abstinence or at least, shall we say, moderation? Then we have the various religious moralities at play: Islamic, Christian, Bahai, independent, etc (Moloch worshippers are not an identified contingent yet, but give them time...). Then we have the secularists who insist on "value-neutral" education who require A) the presentation of all moralities and values on an equal basis, or B) who insist on no values being taught because of 1) the complexity of A, or 2) they really think their way is best as in the "value free" above. What Caesar gets is an increasingly libidinous society which has no moral compass and no moral values and pursues whatever its momentary desires are at full speed...until a more disciplined culture successfully ends the dithering and bickering and licentiousness (at least on the part of the conquered). So it would seem that to encourage immoral behaviour is a non-sequitur, at least in theory. But it usually devolves into a practical value of what advances Caesar's agenda - until some bright soul realizes that there is NEVER a value-less Caesar. The exercise of individual freedom must take into account the social consequences in some way. There must be a balance. As it is, the pendulum sways between latitudinarian and controlled, between late and early Roman, as it were. The presentation of serious options of abstinence and responsible behaviours when no longer choosing abstinence is the best combo.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 03-07-2005 at 04:57 PM. Reason: speeling |
03-07-2005, 05:10 PM | #315 |
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Liberal and weak clergy blamed for empty pews
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent THE LONDON TIMES LONDON (2/6/2005)--CHURCHGOING is in freefall in Britain because clergy and ministers are failing to stand up for moral values and treasured beliefs, a new survey has found. Churches are being “silent” and “lukewarm” in the face of moral and social collapse, according to the £20,000, year-long study of 14,000 British churchgoers and those who have left the Church. Researchers found “a widespread sense of anger and frustration” at what was happening to churches in the UK and Ireland. The 42-page report is an indictment of modern preaching and worship, illustrating how excessive liberalism and lack of conviction are driving worshippers from the pews. The report portrays a desire for sermons based on the Bible and traditional teaching, rather than on politics, social affairs or audience-pleasing stunts. The report calls for better apologetics, or Christian teaching, and claims that many clergy are unable to mount a convincing argument in defence of Christianity and are not interested in trying. When asked to explain why Christianity might be true, the common response is: “It is just a matter of faith.” The report says: “This has resulted in a growing number of people being left with the false impression that there are no strong reasons for Christian belief. Ultimately they abandon churchgoing and are mystified that Christianity continues to grow elsewhere in the world.” The report blames the contemporary practice of teaching the universal nature of God’s love. Because people believe God will continue to love them no matter what they do, they no longer see any need to go to church to confess their sins or seek guidance on how to change their lives. The aim was to explore the reasons why Christianity is in decline in Britain and Ireland but thrives in other parts of the world, including prosperous countries such as the US. Researchers found that the thousands of people who still do go to church do so out of a sense of duty and not because it brings them any fulfilment. They report widespread criticism of the current fashion for “family” or “all age” services for bordering on entertainment rather than worship. One Shropshire churchgoer said: “I’ve seen balloons rising from the pulpit, fake moustaches and all manner of audience appeal . . . but with no real message behind it.” Instead, churchgoers want to be told how to live a Christian life, and to understand how to evangelise in a society distracted by materialism. The report correlates statistics from the past 150 years showing attendance rising in the last half of the 19th century and peaking around 1905 before going into steady decline, with an inverse trend of crime, drunkenness and illegitimacy falling to a low at the turn of the 19th century and then steadily rising. END ******* When there is a strong moral sense there are consequences. When there is no strong moral sense there are consequences. I thought this reflective of the change in GB over the last century - no doubt impeccably researched.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-07-2005, 06:07 PM | #316 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IRex - I won't address your post point-by-point; the only thing I wanted to point out was your apparent total and complete acceptance of an interpretation put on the situation by groups described in the article as "skeptics" and a guy from a "liberal sex education advocacy group". That's all
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I doubt that you'll agree with me, but there it is.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-07-2005, 09:46 PM | #317 | |||
Quasi Evil
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It certainly doesn’t matter WHO pointed this out because of the FACTS of the case. You don’t censor a study that has been found to be legitimate by “external experts”, POSTED on a government site THEN once the new agenda has been established PULLED OFF same site and explained ONLY with a mysterious and totalitarian like ve are “re-evaluating” dis information… and that’s it. Again I ask you how can you celebrate (even support) such tactics with a straight face? Just because a (heaven forbid) liberal spoke up on this is means we should automatically take the governments side without any explanation? I would dare say it makes sense for a liberal group to speak on this issue because it goes directly AGAINST what most of them believe is the right approach to sex education. And frankly, because they aren’t afraid to call a spade a spade. Would you expect a conservative to jump up and down about this? No most of them will just keep quite and hope no one makes a big fuss about it. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-10-2005, 03:54 PM | #318 | |||
Elf Lord
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Not the least of which is going away off on this discussion because of a reaction to an incidental comment on lawrence v texas. I'm also done with this thread, it's been hashed over enough. If there are still people in the US that think abstinence only based education is a good idea, they can stay that way as far as I'm concerned, and vote how they like. I'm trying to get set up to move my operations out of the US.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 03-10-2005 at 03:56 PM. |
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03-10-2005, 04:48 PM | #319 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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btw, I guess your world destruction didn't work this time - sorry
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-11-2005, 05:49 PM | #320 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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You all need to lighten up. ... on teen abstinence, I still say wait til they're 20...
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