The death sentence.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another possible down point to the rest-of-your-life-in-prison idea - Do you guys think that people will abuse this? IOW, turn it into a "well, life in prison may stink, but at least I'll have 3 square meals a day and a roof over my head, and I won't have to work!" Seriously, I know paramedics and cops who have "regulars" - they call 911 and use ambulances as taxi cabs to get to the other side of town because the bar they want to go to is near the hospital, and things like that. And the idea of having prisons cover an area the size of Delaware, or whatever state it is - wow......

Knotty problem .... [/B]

this probably would happen to an extent... though i think it's a worthwhile tradeoff for protecting the general populace

there's also the possibility of finding better alternatives for non-violent criminals... at-home detention for instance

[Ruinel]

The problem is that smaller states will have to send their prisoners someplace. States like Texas accept prisoners from out of state (at a price). Not that the general public wants this, mind you. It's just another way to make money off another state. Sort of like, taking in someone's trash.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hey, that's better than my rep of endorsing baby killing!

yeah not nearly as bad as that I dont think. In fact it could kinda work out pretty well now that I think about it...

"...so sweety you see it actually is better for your well being if you um... I mean you dont want to be sacrificed right...."



*running from the parents*

Another possible down point to the rest-of-your-life-in-prison idea - Do you guys think that people will abuse this? IOW, turn it into a "well, life in prison may stink, but at least I'll have 3 square meals a day and a roof over my head, and I won't have to work!"

I dont see how it would be any different then it is now. I mean are you saying these same people will turn their noses up to only 40 years in jail but the prospect of guaranteed life will send them running to buy guns to murder people so they can live happily in a cell with no future for the rest of their lives? Maybe but it seems dubious.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
...I dont see how it would be any different then it is now. I mean are you saying these same people will turn their noses up to only 40 years in jail but the prospect of guaranteed life will send them running to buy guns to murder people so they can live happily in a cell with no future for the rest of their lives? Maybe but it seems dubious.

I happen to agree that no one is going to send themselves to prison to get 3 meals and a cot for 40 years. However, I do not think that 40 years in jail is enough for some of these killers, and the things they did to their victims. When I mean 'life', I do mean 'life'... no parole, no time to serve. I mean you are in and there will never ever be an out. Period.

[Lotesse]

What do you guys think about Tookie Williams getting the death axe next week? Can people redeem themselves after commiting a crime of murder? Do you believe in an eye for an eye, or do you think it leaves everyone blind? I'm curious to see what others here think about this. I myself am a little torn. I don't believe in the death penalty, but there ARE certain extremely unbelieveably loathesome criminals from time to time of whom it can easily be said, "let them taste death" or whatever. But what about redemption? And how does killing a killer right things, or help society; is it ethical? And if so, why, and if NOT, why?

[Lotesse]

Here you guys; here's a cool article from the L.A. Weekly I read yesterday, which got me thinking. It'll give you all some idea of what I was talking about mentioning Tookie as an example of the death penalty thing.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/06/02/news-krikorian.php

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

What do you guys think about Tookie Williams getting the death axe next week? Can people redeem themselves after commiting a crime of murder? Do you believe in an eye for an eye, or do you think it leaves everyone blind? I'm curious to see what others here think about this. I myself am a little torn. I don't believe in the death penalty, but there ARE certain extremely unbelieveably loathesome criminals from time to time of whom it can easily be said, "let them taste death" or whatever. But what about redemption? And how does killing a killer right things, or help society; is it ethical? And if so, why, and if NOT, why?

Although Im not at all a fan of the death penalty (I would assume make it life in prison) I dont see a reason to over turn his sentence just because hes a changed man. What he did he already did (although he is now denying he did it which is something else entirely...) and it cant be reversed. Its fairly irrelevant if hes become a great guy or found god or something.

What really should have happen (for the sake of true justice) is he should have wound up dead when he was still gang banging and doing illegal stuff so there wouldnt have had to be all this money spent and we wouldnt be in the dilemma we are in now where we are killing a "changed man" years after the fact.

That being said, Im of the opinion that the death penalty is generally a bad idea because it kills innocent people and because it kills certain segments of people unfairly. Life in prison is worse anyway if you ask me.

[Spock]

Yep. Everyone facing death row, finds God, changes their personality, sings Kumby-yah. You do the crime, you do the time. You kill somebody or some people, you gotta go; bub-bye .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Life in prison is worse anyway if you ask me.

that's the key... somehow we have a complete inability to actually enforce "life in prison without the possibility of parole" on an individual

the death penalty is wrong because it can not be reversed in the case of a mistake... but, many more innocent people die or are subject to terrible tragedies due to the release of "reformed" criminals into society than the handful of innocents that are executed

until we develop the strength it takes as a society to properly deal with those who commit crimes, the "easy way out" (the death penalty) is preferrable to the other "easy way out" (early release from crowded prisons)

[Insidious Rex]

I don’t see how you can logically justify killing innocents so that you don’t risk the POSSIBILITY of allowing innocents to be killed. That doesn’t make sense to me. And Im fairly dubious as to how many prisoners who would otherwise be on death row would wind up out of prison killing all these innocent people. I mean weve only put to death 1000 people since like 1978 as it is. The numbers aren’t really there.

[Butterbeer]

funny one this, i am generaly against the death penalty - as you say mistakes are non-reversable, but in terms of numbers ..wasn't your point about the mistakes that maybe rare they do happen and even a small percentage is too many?

though i agree for certain crimes then life must really mean life ... and it is far more a punishment (LIFE imprisoned) than a quick end ... if there is a hell they will go there anyway if guilty ...

though of course on that basis you could argue the reverse .. the truly innocent would find heaven .. which would be better than a LIFE in prison ...

ho hum.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I don’t see how you can logically justify killing innocents so that you don’t risk the POSSIBILITY of allowing innocents to be killed. That doesn’t make sense to me. And Im fairly dubious as to how many prisoners who would otherwise be on death row would wind up out of prison killing all these innocent people. I mean weve only put to death 1000 people since like 1978 as it is. The numbers aren’t really there.

but it's not a possibility, it's a fact that people murder and then are released and murder again

from this article

Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.

1.2% sounds small, but if you delve into the numbers, over 2,000 cases of released murders murdering again... compared to maybe 10 or so possible innocents that have been put to death via capital punishment?

obviously, the real answer is to keep them in prison... but this simply does not happen, so what is the better alternative... death or possible release?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

1.2% sounds small, but if you delve into the numbers, over 2,000 cases of released murders murdering again... compared to maybe 10 or so possible innocents that have been put to death via capital punishment?

But how many of them were actually on death row and were released to kill again? A scant few I would imagine if any. Those were numbers for people who had been given a sentence of less then death. Not death. So it doesnt enter into the point that the number of true death row inmates placed instead on life in prison and then getting out early would be just about nothing. Because weve only had 1,000 death sentences in 30 years remember. Thats 33 a year. Which would mean the likelihood of them killing someone to be 1000 multiplied by the percentage of life-in-prison prisoners that actually end up getting released from jail (couldnt find that stat) multiplied in turn by .012 which Im guessing would be a pretty small number. Furthermore, I would think most of that 1.2% would be people who came out of prison and got back into gang or organized related crime. So essentially they would be killing other criminals among the majority of that 1.2% (this is a huge percentage of ALL murders actually). Not leaving jail to seek out some innocent alter boy to torture and kill.

Furthermore, where do you get your 10 figure from? There has been at least dozens and dozens of people released from jail because of DNA evidence. And I would imagine this would still be the tip of the iceberg for the total number of innocents found guilty for crimes. And this was just in the past 10 years or so when theyve been able to do DNA testing to determine that kind of thing. AND thats ONLY for crimes where DNA testing is available and possible. You can bet there have been far more then just 10 people sent to death for crimes they did not commit and we will never know about it.

[brownjenkins]

the question for me is not how many people are on death row and exonerated before being executed... this is the system working as it should... one could even argue that, had they not been on death row, their cases might not have got the attention that eventually brought about their exoneration

the question is, how many on death row were executed and later found to be innocent... 10 was a guess (it might be zero for all i know)... i will look for some numbers if i get the chance, but i imagine those numbers are small

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

..... A scant few I would imagine if any. ......Which would mean the likelihood of them killing someone to be 1000 multiplied by the percentage of life-in-prison prisoners that actually end up getting released from jail (couldnt find that stat) multiplied in turn by .012 which Im guessing would be a pretty small number.

hmmmm, ok, so you voluntarily place yourself in that percentile and the rest of us can feel safe

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Furthermore, I would think most of that 1.2% .....

it's amazing, my algebra professor was right: "you can manipulate figures to mean what ever you want".

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

hmmmm, ok, so you voluntarily place yourself in that percentile and the rest of us can feel safe

Not sure what you are getting at here. If you know even the most elementary things about satistics you would know that even if I were to volunteer to be a false positive death sentence that doesnt make it any less likely anybody else wont be either.

it's amazing, my algebra professor was right: "you can manipulate figures to mean what ever you want".

Do you need a review of those figures spock? Its pretty straight forward stuff. And if your alegbra teacher was teaching you simple multiplication then no wonder you didnt get it.

[ringbearer]

MY BAD...posted to the wrong threAD...DISREGARD...

[brownjenkins]

i guess part of my attitude about the topic stems from the fact that people tend to spend an awful lot of time arguing the details of something like capital punishment (which effects an extremely small percentage of murderers) and very little time on the idea of keeping murders in jail, almost without exception (which effects many more)

the issues with capital punishment, as it stands in the US today, pale in comparision to the bigger issues of violent criminals continuing to be released only to do violence again... let's focus on that problem first

it's very similar to the abortion debate... way too much time spent on the fetus, way too little time spent on the babies and children they will become

[Spock]

BJ and I agree on this......oh, what a great Friday for me

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Eighty percent of success is showing up.
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94.5% of all statistics are made up.
-------------the above courtesy of Woody Allen---------------

[EarthBound]

While concuring is in fact quite borring..... I concur with both BJ and Spock

I'll now go put my nose in the 'tedium corner'