|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
09-10-2010, 05:28 AM | #241 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Congrats to German PM Angela for presenting a press freedom award to Mark Westergaard, the Danish cartoonist who drew a caroon showing Mohammed wearing a bomb-shaped turban -assuming, of course, that her motives are sincere and it's not a political ploy to drum up anti-immigration support.
She also strongly condemned the Koran-burning in Forida at the same time. Which brings me to that, and I must say I have been feeling uneasy about the response the last few days. With the full court press on this guy, I get the feeling we're seeing the application of what's known as the 'heckler's veto'- that is, the idea that yes, we have free speech, but you have to watch what you say because you might stir somebody to some crazy and violent reaction.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-10-2010, 01:55 PM | #242 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
I have no problem with this crackpot receiving all the ridicule and derision hes been getting from ALL fronts. Clearly liberal and conservative, christian and non-christian have come together to renounce him as an embarrassment. The press love it though and I fear hes now getting the very attention he wanted to begin with. Hes got four star generals talking about him in press conferences and defense secretaries calling him personally to chat. Now who knows the extent of the pressure he received to call this thing off (and as I understand its gone from being on to being cancelled to now being "postponed" because he was under the impression the imam from the NY mosque agreed to move the mosque location if he cancelled the book burning. But the imam agreed to no such thing he said). Who knows what kind of threats have been leveled against him and his family (apparently a large number of FBI agents have been visiting the church regularly the past week or so). Its of course wrong to go over that first amendment line to threats of personal harm but I would have had no problem with counter demonstrators picketing his church, or even exploring any potential local zoning laws regarding open burning or such. If there was a way to legitimately legally stop him why not. Its a despicable act of a deluded crack pot. Frankly, Id be willing to risk facing trespassing charges to go down there with a hose and spray them every time they try to light a match. I think I feel compelled to act in that way to prove to the rest of the world (and especially muslim nations) that some americans so disagree with this guy that they are willing to go to that extent to stop him. One solitary man burning a koran on youtube will convince billions that america is an intolerant society that hates muslims. one man chasing the crack pot around with a hose might make them realize oh wait maybe its NOT about ALL americans after all...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-10-2010, 06:59 PM | #243 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
You do realise that the FBI was required to talk to him because he has received over 100 threats of physical violence and death threats from the sensitive, peace-loving, Islamic fundamentalists et alia who obviously think that the sensitive thing to do?
Also, one trusts that you are aware that it is a tenet of Islam that one can lie to non-muslims to get one's ways? As in, "gee, they'll move the proposed site from GZ to 5 blocks away" by an imam who has never talked to the principals according to the principals? The media sure has forgotten about sensitivity and presenting all sides of the issue. Of course, the point of his protest is that the planned mosque is insensitive, but, hey, how could a liberal media or its addicts manage to grasp that? The blinders are on.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-11-2010, 12:16 AM | #244 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
09-13-2010, 01:11 PM | #245 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
The point of the protest is to attract undeserved attention to this crack pot. And it has worked. He has done stupid stunts like this BEFORE the whole NY Mosque controversy even started. So spare me your "conservative media" spin...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-13-2010, 01:22 PM | #246 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
So 100 out of a billion plus? Id say thats a pretty good ratio. And if you are implying that muslims as a rule are violent extremists (as you always are) did you know that Kim Kardashian received HUNDREDS of death threats from Justin Bieber fans when he announced they were dating? (and no I dont expect you to know who they are. Google it maybe. Just might want to make sure you have a good firewall...). Does that mean all american teenage females are "radical extremists" bent on killing people and committing jihad in the name of teen heart throbs or does it just mean theres enough crazy extremists in every group to make this kind of reaction a fact of human nature?
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-14-2010, 08:58 PM | #247 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
A man after your own heart, IR:
Quote:
Though, of course, I totally disagree with his action, it's still funny.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
09-15-2010, 12:53 AM | #248 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.salisburypost.com/Crime/0...-FBI-Moose-qcd Fill in the blank with the correct religion and win a prize!
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
09-15-2010, 05:41 AM | #249 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Not to mention PZ Myers having to seek police protection after getting hundreds of threats over his plan to destroy a communion wafer- and he only decided to do this after the student in Florida who took a wafer in the first place was also inundated with death threats- so basically IR's point holds.
OTOH, I must admit I'd take Muslim fundamentalists threats a bit more seriously on any issue except bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors and nurses- there Christians have amply demonstrated their commitment to the cause.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-15-2010, 01:27 PM | #250 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
I think thats fantastic. Id do the same thing and happily risk the petty larceny charge. Its worth it to counter that message in the eyes of millions around the world. Although sooner or later some wack job is going to succeed in actually putting burning match to Koran and then stick it on Youtube to speed around the internet outraging hundreds of millions of muslims and leading to some inevitable overreaction in some far flung country. Didnt 17 people in India die recently just protesting the planned burning of the Koran? And I think that was even after the pastor had decided NOT to burn it! So hang on tight. Its inevitable stupid people will copy cat this and more stupid people will overreact violently and burn their own neighborhood down because they are angry at Islam hating america...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-15-2010, 02:54 PM | #251 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Why is it that no one in the public sphere cares about the desecration of consecrated Eucharist? When someone says "I'm going to burn a Koran and scatter the ashes," the public outrage at the act is prompt and voluminous. When someone says "I'm going to crumble a host up and grind it into the dirt," the very same people that cry blue murder about the Koran pay no attention, except to sneer at the horror of Catholics, and cry monster whenever some of them go too far. While I don't know too much Muslim theology, my understanding is that the do not believe the Koran to actually be God, and so the desecration of a host is even more of an offense to Catholics than the burning of the Koran is to Muslims. And yet, it doesn't matter? Why? I suspect the answer begins with a "d" and ends with an "ouble standard." Could it possibly be that the multi-culturalism these people tout so proudly does not apply to traditional forms of Christianity?
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-15-2010 at 02:57 PM. |
|
09-15-2010, 07:10 PM | #252 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Probably because they have no idea what it is.
Also, burning a book is a bit more media friendly than stamping on a biscuit. |
09-15-2010, 07:22 PM | #253 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Oh, Bull ****. Our society is not yet so post-christian that even the intelligentsia don't recognize the basic imagery, and at least some vague sense of significance, even if the theological particularities escape them. That's just ridiculous.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-15-2010 at 07:27 PM. |
09-15-2010, 09:43 PM | #254 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Perhaps it's this sort of thinking.
Maybe, deep down, the mainstream media only care about respecting Islam because they are afraid of it. Perhaps they are just as Islamophobic as Jones, divided from him only by cleverness, and a propensity for placating what they fear. Worth a thought.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-16-2010, 01:10 AM | #255 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Honestly? As an atheist, don't have the strong ties to a cracker. Someone stomping on that is like 1000% less of a statement to me than someone burning something (koran, bible, Origin of the Species, flag, etc).
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
09-16-2010, 04:12 AM | #256 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Seriously, if this is what you think, then I fear that you need to get out more.
|
09-16-2010, 06:10 AM | #257 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Quote:
For example, the Dalai Lama's view on homosexuality is almost identical to the Pope's- yet you don't see any gay rights groups protesting when he shows up in town. (Late for class- more later.)
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
09-16-2010, 09:01 AM | #258 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
So I've noticed; I've known gay people who carp on how hateful the Pope is, but have pictures of the Dalai Lama around their homes. Quoi?
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-16-2010 at 09:47 AM. |
|
09-16-2010, 09:24 AM | #259 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Just curious. Another thought: it could be tied up with the fact that the Koran is a book, and we are all programmed to react strongly to the burning of books, as destructive of the free exchange of ideas. In which case, of course, religious tolerance and respect actually have nothing to do with the reaction to Jones.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
09-16-2010, 02:10 PM | #260 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Its about christianity being the "home team" in my opinion. The suburban "normal" face of america religion. When an american burns a koran it becomes "christian westerners attacking islam". Thats true even if the person involved isnt christian and even if 99% of americans find their actions horribly distasteful. Because its one team doing something to another team that first team is identified with that action in its entirety (as we see here quite frequently in the other direction when certain people post here about the horrible actions of one or a small number of muslims as if to imply ALL muslims are like that). Not simply the one renegade idiot on the team that engages in the action.
Now when a bible is burned I dont feel that same primal urge to try to make it clear that as an american I am against this whole heartedly. Because we (in the collective form) are all "christians" (lower case c) here. Even us agnostics and atheists like it or not. Weve grown up in this society and its decidedly christian. So its an internal thing. We are all on that home team. Now, I DO feel a smaller version of that because as an agnostic I wouldnt want christians thinking he is a christian hater because he shares the same (non) faith as the bible burner. But its a far cry from having ALL americans lumped in with a crazy koran burner. I interact with christians every day and feel comfortable the vast majority wouldnt see me that way because of our familiarity with each other as opposed to how a muslim from a middle east slum who has had NO contact with christians and NO contact with westerners might perceive an american burning the koran. I would still have the same reaction if I heard someone announcing they planned to burn the bible as I did with the Koran (in that Id really want to protest their actions and stop them if I could) BUT the aspect of not wanting the "other team" to think Im part of that mindset doesnt exist in that scenario. Does that make burning the Koran more distasteful to me? I dont think so. Just one less reason to be frantic about it. And I have to say honestly I would not have the same reaction to a communion wafer as I would to the bible OR the koran. To me that would just be silly to see a grown man stomping a tiny cracker. I would not share with you that blasphemous horror you feel about such actions but I would feel that if it was the koran or the bible. I mean does the same reaction apply if you pour out or spit out communion wine? But fear doesnt enter into it for me, other than the indirect fear that such actions would most certainly put our soldiers in a more precarious situation but thats not what gets me to react viscerally. What gets me to react viscerally is being misrepresented by idiots on MY team doing things in my name as far as the other team is concerned. If your brother does something stupid do you feel a stronger sense of anger about it then if it was someone you had no connection to? Because he brings embarrassment to you or your family with his actions? I cant speak for why others react but thats the kind of feeling I have...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|