Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Oh, and one more thing re Eärniel's answer -

There IS one category of event for which God uses the word "if" ... does anyone know?

[Lief Erikson]

Mmm. The one that immediately pops to mind is "If Israel turns to sin, then I will punish it," but I'm not sure that's the one you mean .

That one didn't even apply only to Israel, though. The Lord applied it to other nations as well, as we can see in cases such as Jonah and the Assyrian Empire, and Daniel and the Babylonian Empire. Israel is certainly the most obvious case though, for that is the one that the Bible focuses most strongly upon, in the Old Testament, when they're really talking about physical events with other nations.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I have a question that I want everyone to answer. It is sort of off subject, and I apologize about that, dearly. My youth group is studying "women of the bible" and we are in the discussion of prostitutes. We all have to give/speek our minds about purity, to stay pure until marriage. I want your opinions about this subject too. Not only Christians can answer, Jew Catholics and ALL religions can answer as they wish. My request is: no swearing, respectful words, please, and say what you feel (example: I think everyone should wait for that special someone to come along before they go ahead and do it,[...]

My opinion: If you want to wait for somebody special, that's fine but it should be your own choice and not because an ancient piece of paper says so. If you don't want to wait or if you have already found this special person but you just don't want to marry him, that's fine too. As long as you're of legal age of course. It's not like virginity makes you a better person.

Continued:
[...]I have much [Christian] scripture to back my theory that if you DON'T wait then you are to be put into the eternal fire (HELL)

I tend to be rather irked when I hear people dealing out Hell or Heaven-judgement on others. If you want to believe in a god, then leave judgments on such things to him. Because since we're all sinners here, what gives us the right to judge in these things when we can never know all the factors involved? Shouldn't we be leaving these things to the all power-full and all-knowing entities who, according to religion, will be the REAL judge in the end after all? It's also not like we have a voice in the decision of other people's final spiritual resting place anyway. Just wondering out loud.

There's this quote about a splinter and a planck in someone's eye that springs to mind but I can't remember the English translation...

Originally posted by RÃ*an
My point was going to be a bit different from what you concluded, tho. It was that we ALL say things like that, along with expressions of surprise and similar things that indicate that ... we are NOT God!. Because God doesn't ever have the need to talk like that And the more I think about the subject of suffering, the more I think that the answer boils down to a PERSON, not a mere explanation. And the person is God, and who He is. And I think that God might agree with my answer because that's how He answered Job...

I can't say I completely follow. Must be dense again.... I can understand the bit about us not being gods. I never stated otherwise, just so you'd know. I can also understand gods never have to say things about 'I wish this or that' because -after all- they're supposed to be all-powerful, isn't it?

I just don't understand the bit about persons. Are you saying that since God is, well, basically God (all-knowing, all-powerful, all... you get the idea) that we should trust in his good judgment of the situation and be content with it?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I have a question that I want everyone to answer. It is sort of off subject, and I apologize about that, dearly. My youth group is studying "women of the bible" and we are in the discussion of prostitutes. We all have to give/speek our minds about purity, to stay pure until marriage. I want your opinions about this subject too. Not only Christians can answer, Jew Catholics and ALL religions can answer as they wish.
My request is: no swearing, respectful words, please, and say what you feel (example: I think everyone should wait for that special someone to come along before they go ahead and do it, I have much [Christian] scripture to back my theory that if you DON'T wait then you are to be put into the eternal fire (HELL).)
That is all, thank you.

I would like to say that Catholics ARE Christians by the way...the oldest branch of them. And we believe that prstitution is wrong...it's a mortal sin as is fornication...and it does say in the Bible that fornicators, adulterers and such will not inherit the Kingdom of God....most like saying that they will go to hell.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I would like to say that Catholics ARE Christians by the way...the oldest branch of them.

Well, I disagree - I think the oldest branch was a group of non-denominational Jews (in the sense of Jewish race) that were good friends of Jesus

Arien, do you agree with my comment on her question?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, I disagree - I think the oldest branch was a group of non-denominational Jews (in the sense of Jewish race) that were good friends of Jesus

Arien, do you agree with my comment on her question?

You are right...the word Catholic didn't come in to use untill the Reformation I believe. But as far as doctrine, it's the very same.

I'm not sure..what was your comment on her question? I'm really lazy today and don't want to spend the time looking for it

[Rían]

never mind the comment - no big deal

[Silme*Christian]

Thank you all for your oppinions.

I would like to say that Catholics ARE Christians by the way...the oldest branch of them.

I am deeply sorry if I angered you, I had no intentions of doing so. But I think that, tecknicaly, Jews are the first Christians. The Christian religion derived from the Jewish religion [after the death of Christ and the resurection, of course]. But I disagree that Catholics (Not to harm you or anger you) are not Christians. Their customs are much different from ours. Lots of my Catholic friends consider themselves Christians, but they changed their minds after hanging around me, I took them to my church and youth group and they desided that they are not like Christians. I have a questian, are Catholics agains dodge ball? I have 5 Catholic friends, and they act like dodge ball is a sin and is a game that only the devil can play. It is really weird, they HATE dodge ball. So is it their religion, or is there something really wrong with them? If it is religion I can see why, it would be horrible to beat each other up with balls. I was just wondering, I never saw anything like that before.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I have a questian, are Catholics agains dodge ball? I have 5 Catholic friends, and they act like dodge ball is a sin and is a game that only the devil can play. It is really weird, they HATE dodge ball. So is it their religion, or is there something really wrong with them? If it is religion I can see why, it would be horrible to beat each other up with balls. I was just wondering, I never saw anything like that before.

I dont think Catholics are opposed to contact sports hun. There are a LOT of very religious catholics who are rabid fans of the fighting Irish (in fact they are scary they are such wild fans) so unless theres a clause in there saying football is ok yer friends more likely dont like dodge ball cause they dont like getting pegged with a ball going bout 60 mph and not because it says so in the bible. And by the way YES catholics are definitely christians. Same god. Same bible. Same basic beliefs (give or take a few). Just different pomp and circumstance involved.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Thank you all for your oppinions.

I am deeply sorry if I angered you, I had no intentions of doing so. But I think that, tecknicaly, Jews are the first Christians. The Christian religion derived from the Jewish religion [after the death of Christ and the resurection, of course]. But I disagree that Catholics (Not to harm you or anger you) are not Christians. Their customs are much different from ours. Lots of my Catholic friends consider themselves Christians, but they changed their minds after hanging around me, I took them to my church and youth group and they desided that they are not like Christians. I have a questian, are Catholics agains dodge ball? I have 5 Catholic friends, and they act like dodge ball is a sin and is a game that only the devil can play. It is really weird, they HATE dodge ball. So is it their religion, or is there something really wrong with them? If it is religion I can see why, it would be horrible to beat each other up with balls. I was just wondering, I never saw anything like that before.

well Catholics are Christians....we belive in Christ and in One God...and like I said before to Rian...yes we hold the very same beliefs that the early Christians did but the word Catholic didn't come in to use till the reformation...would you call Lutherans or Orthadox people Christians just because they have a name associated with their church? ie the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Orthadox Church etc...catholic just means universal. to be a Christian you just need to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He came to save us. yes, we have beliefs that are rooted in tradition and that are not necessarily in the bible, maybe that's why you think that we aren't real Christians.....and no the Catholic Church is not against dodge ball or any other contact sport.

[Rían]

*has fond memories of playing dodge ball*

*was darn good at it*

[jellyfishannah]

Thanks to my parents, I have been to many many different churches. My father somehow found fault with each of them. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran....you name it. Pretty crazy. I-unlike one of my siblings-did not turn away from christianity because of all my parent's undecidedness. I would say it made me stronger in my faith and gave me a knowledge of what is out there. I also saw many different types of people in these churches...some with more faith than others. I am now Russian Orthodox christian. 'Christian' is the key word here people. 'Denomination' is something else. It certainly would be wonderful if everyone could worship together in harmony, but, sadly, this can never happen. It just doesn't work.

And what is up with this dodgeball thing? Of course Catholics play contact sports. If any of your friends think dodgeball is evil, its because of their twisted upbringing...javascript:smilie('')

[Silme*Christian]

I guess I never thought of Catholicism and Christianity like that. Makes sence. Thank you for clearing up that little mess, and the dodge ball thing. These girls are really odd, they never wear anything other than a long-sleave turtle neck and dresse/skirts that go past their ankles. They are strange girls. I have always wanted to learn more about other religions (I have no clue what a "Lutheran" is, but have heard of "Orthadox") but, unfortunately, never got to study about it. I know a lot about Catholics because of my friends, but for all those other religions, I am tuff out of luck! I can't just pick up one of their bibles and study it.

[Insidious Rex]

well yer in the right thread if you have questions. and hopefully as you get older youll emerge from your little hole in the sand and see the big broad world as it really is in all is flavors and variaties. it can only be a good experience to learn more about the world.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I guess I never thought of Catholicism and Christianity like that. Makes sence. Thank you for clearing up that little mess, and the dodge ball thing. These girls are really odd, they never wear anything other than a long-sleave turtle neck and dresse/skirts that go past their ankles. They are strange girls. I have always wanted to learn more about other religions (I have no clue what a "Lutheran" is, but have heard of "Orthadox") but, unfortunately, never got to study about it. I know a lot about Catholics because of my friends, but for all those other religions, I am tuff out of luck! I can't just pick up one of their bibles and study it.

Well the Lutheran Church was the first Protestant Church founded in the 16th century by Martin Luther...the Orthadox Church is really similar to the Catholic Church in the way of beliefs (any Orthadox p[lease feel free to correct me! I have always been interested in Othdaox rituals and such)...during 1054 the Christian Church split into the EAst (Orthadox and the West Catholic. They aren't considered Protestant by the Catholics. As far as Bible's go, I think that all Prtestants use basically the same Bible...different versions but all the same books. Catholics (and I'm not sure but I think Orthadox too) use a Bible that has 7 additionsl books included in the Old Testament. I'm interested in different denominations too and since I went to Catholic school for 12 years I got alot of info during religion classes.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Mmm. The one that immediately pops to mind is "If Israel turns to sin, then I will punish it," but I'm not sure that's the one you mean .

That's one example, the more postive side is God's saying IF people turn to Him, they will be blessed. We see this theme over and over throughout the OT and the NT.

So the basic general category is *drumroll* : a person's choices.

So we see that God, the creator of the universe, has indeed made mankind in His image (note- image, not identical or equal, for it is impossible for created beings to be on the same scale as their Creator), in the sense that people have free choice. Now it is limited free choice, but free choice many, MANY areas. And one way people use free choice is to inflict suffering on others. This free choice is limited both in scope and in duration, however, and people will be judged according to their choices on the day of judgement. However, the Bible also says that God is delaying this day in order to let as many people as possible make the free choice to accept His gift of salvation.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I just don't understand the bit about persons. Are you saying that since God is, well, basically God (all-knowing, all-powerful, all... you get the idea) that we should trust in his good judgment of the situation and be content with it?

That's kinda what I'm saying .... yet it's not expressing all I'm thinking I think I'll just have to ponder on it a bit more. It's more than just trusting in good judgement... *ponders some more*

It's kinda more like my husband, who has good judgement, but also has a great heart... it's not just dry judgement, there is good character involved, too...

Sorry I can't express it better - I'll have to put the thought back on the "back burner" to simmer a bit more

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
...no doubt. although I personally have felt that society's norms and standards are arbitrary and puritanical and intrusive and just plain wrong headed in so many ways so lots of the things Ive done that many people would put in the "shame on you" category I have no problem with. Guess its the libertarian side of me. or the hedonistic side. who knows.

But I'm not talking about society, IRex, I'm talking about you, in the quiet of the middle of the night, thinking on some of the things you've done that YOU know were wrong and hurtful, regardless of what society thinks, and seeing them for just how awful they really were. And we ALL have things like that that we've done.

[Rían]

So let me try to get an initial overall post on what I understand to be the Biblical view on suffering - I've just been kinda jumping around, touching on various points, and now I'll make a first cut at putting it all together. I'll put numbers on for reference.

1) God is a unique Being - He has no beginning and no end - He is omnipotent, perfectly holy, and righteous, among other things . He created the universe, and created mankind in His image. This includes the ability to make free will choices in many, many areas. However, this free will is limited in both scope and duration.

2) Kind of a subset of 1), but it's very important - people are NOT on the same level as God, and never will be. And this is good. And this is real, as well as realistic.

(whoops - this reminded me of one more area that I wanted to touch on! Analogies of God/mankind relationship. I guess I'll just put it as number 3.)

3) One of the more interesting things in the Bible are some of the terms used to describe the relationship between man and God (and I'll use "man" in the sense of "mankind" from now on). Because the interesting thing is that there is NO exact analogy for this relationship. But there are several quite useful ones that describe, somewhat, different aspects of the relationship.

One is artist/artifact (God is the potter, we are the clay).

Another is shepherd/flock (Jesus is our good shepherd, we are His sheep).

Another is parent/child (both male/female, and animal and human - God as some kind of mothering bird, IIRC, longing to gather us under his wings, and then God as a mother loving her child, as in the verse I quoted in the post on God's love for us, and of course the major one of God as our heavenly Father).

Another is husband/wife, which is seen over and over in mostly the OT (God the king loving and marrying a lovely but obscure maiden, then the maiden playing the harlot and God longing for her return. Also the church referred to as the bride of Christ).

These are useful analogies in various ways, and all point out the leadership, or rightful authority, or caretaker roles of God towards people. The parent/child is perhaps the closest in many ways, and in THAT light, one can see that the parent knows best, and then it makes sense that God would know best for us. Where it fails, however, is that for humans, the child will eventually grow up and be a peer to his/her parents. However, whether we like it or not, the reality is that humans will never be a peer to God.

And now I'm out of time, but that's probably enough for one session, anyway

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
You are right...the word Catholic didn't come in to use untill the Reformation I believe. But as far as doctrine, it's the very same.

[quote]St. Ignatius of Antioch used the phrase katholike ekklesia, Catholic Church, the unity of all churches, in letters he wrote during his journey as a prisoner from Antioch to Rome around 107 AD. His use of katholike ekklesia in several letters suggests that it was already in widespread use by then.[quote]

It also appears in the Nicene Creed of 381 AD