06-13-2010, 03:43 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Tolkien and Iron
Okay, I know that Tolkien in now way wanted his writings on Middle Earth to be allegorical. As Patrick Curry wrote,
I am aware, of course, that Tolkien’s fiction cannot be reduced to his views. Nonetheless it is idle to pretend that those views are not in his fiction and cannot be inferred from it, together with his letters and essays. However, I am fascinated by his use of the word "iron," I think that he perhaps used iron in a way that agreed with his disinclination towards modernity. About two minutes ago I was looking up a quote to present in this thread and (for the second time) came across an essay by Patrick Curry, the man quoted above. He presents this fascination with Tolkien's use of iron much better than I would, so here is the link to the essay: Click here Any comments?
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien Last edited by EllethValatari : 06-15-2010 at 09:36 PM. |
06-14-2010, 12:56 PM | #2 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Iron certainly has a number of connotations in Tolkien: hard, cruel, strong. Most prominent, probably, is the connotation of power, and especially of domination. While this is certainly connected to Tolkien's Luddite tendencies, we must remember that iron has been a source of power for a very, very long time.
I suspect that the mentioned mythic protective ability of iron derives from its connotation of power and strength, and should not necessarily be seen as "positive." It is important to recall that the supernatural in fairy stories is much more ambiguous than people tend to think, and I would consider this a case of fighting fire with fire. It would be interesting to take a closer look at this understanding of iron, though. Out of curiosity, where did you get this article?
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06-14-2010, 05:18 PM | #3 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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Whereas the few Elvish and Mannish crowns that Tolkien describes are made of gold or silver, the ultimate Enemy in Tolkien's world - Morgoth - wears an Iron Crown.
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06-15-2010, 03:39 AM | #4 | ||
Elf Lord
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Very interesting. On a historical note, one of the major causes of the great deforestation of Britain from the 16th to 19th Century was the demand for charcoal for iron smelting- first in England, then Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. In 1558 an "Act that Timber shall not be felled to make Coals for Burning of Iron" was passed, but didn't do much good.
From "The Energy Question": "From about 1600 on iron was shipped to Ireland for smelting. The woodland destruction was immense and became a theme for lament in Irish poetry. The Welsh and Scottish forests were also devastated to provide fuel for English ironmasters." And an updated lament, from The Men They Couldn't Hang: Quote:
The Bible reference - tying back into Max Weber, Protestantism, and the Spirit of Capitalism- was to these usually being English Protestants exploiting Catholic Ireland and the mostly Catholic Scottish Highlands. Ironically, it was the switch to fossil fuels that was responsible for the great reforestattion of the British Isles, Northern Europe, Eastern North America, and Japan during the 20th Century. Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-15-2010 at 03:40 AM. |
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06-15-2010, 04:10 AM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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As well, I would question the wholly positive spin on "enchantment" given here. Yes, Lorien was an enchanted land, but so was Sleeping Beauty's Castle, the Underworld controlled by the Lady of the Green Kirtle, the island of Circe and the "elfin grot" of La Belle Dame Sans Merci.
One of the common themes in Faerie is that entering into the Enchanted Realm, while indeed wonderful, can also be very dangerous- you may not be able to get back. To me it would seem that Enchantment, like Magic, can also be used (or abused) as a form of power. Though this ties into his Mars/Venus dichotomy- it's surely no coincidence that the word "enchantress"- but not "enchanter"- survives in common usage. And iron- often referred to as "cold iron"or "cold steel"- is often used to cut through the web of enchantment- IIRC, this is a pretty common happening in the more masculine-oriented fantasy of Sword and Sorcery- usually some hulk like Conan whipping out his trusty sword and destroying a spell and bringing things back of the "real world". Because, in spite of all the magicians , Elder Gods and assorted weird beasties floating around, the actual background world of S&S is always prosaic- one of the features that distinguishes it from High Fantasy. You can see this in Tolkien in the unease felt by Boromir and the Rohirrim -very cold steel, broad daylight types of guys- toward the Lady of the Golden Wood and 'net-weavers and sorcerers' who may be associated with her. In LOTR, with its straightforward Good/Evil distinction, they're simply mistaken, of course. " 'Perilous, indeed', said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous, but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them.' " Well, maybe...but you might want to keep that piece of iron handy....
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-15-2010 at 04:32 AM. |
06-15-2010, 10:06 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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When I went to start this post, I was looking up a quote, and for the second time came across his essay. I have a folder on my desktop filled with essays that I come across and don't want to forget; I often end up quoting them in essays. Anyways, I decided to post his as conversation starter, since I had a limited amount of information.
Back to Tolkien and Iron, I wanted to point out a couple of things: 1. In my signature, a quote from Tolkien's On Faerie-Stories, We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. 2. A couple of excerpts from Tolkien's Mythopoeia, Paragraph 6: Blessed are the men of Noah's race that build their little arks, though frail and poorly filled, and steer through winds contrary towards a wraith, a rumour of a harbour guessed by faith. Paragraph 7: Blessed are the legend-makers with their rhyme of things not found within recorded time. It is not they that have forgot the Night, or bid us flee to organized delight, in lotus-isles of economic bliss forswearing souls to gain a Circe-kiss (and counterfeit at that, machine-produced, bogus seduction of the twice-seduced). Paragraph 8: I will not walk with your progressive apes, erect and sapient. Before them gapes the dark abyss to which their progress tends if by God's mercy progress ever ends, and does not ceaselessly revolve the same unfruitful course with changing of a name. I will not treat your dusty path and flat, denoting this and that by this and that, your world immutable wherein no part the little maker has with maker's art. I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor cast my own small golden sceptre down. Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to post the whole stanza for context. First, in the 1st reference, Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour and in the second, Blessed are the men of Noah's race that build their little arks, though frail and poorly filled, and steer through winds contrary towards a wraith, a rumour of a harbour guessed by faith. In both of these he speaks of ships and harbors; ships that represent myths and man's creative works, and the true harbor, found through faith. In his fictional works, the immortal elves depart in ships to Valinor, while we rarely find evil beings in ships. "Noah arks" would have to be made of wood, and they were made by people, not machines. This and their good connotation makes sense because in paragraph 7 he clearly says, and counterfeit at that, machine-produced In addition to the good connotation of wood and naturally made things, you have the event in LoTR when Saruman tears down part of Fanghorn Forest (wood) to burn and use to build weapons (iron). Secondly, in the first reference, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. and in Paragraph 8, I will not walk with your progressive apes, erect and sapient. Before them gapes the dark abyss to which their progress tends if by God's mercy progress ever ends, and does not ceaselessly revolve the same I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor cast my own small golden sceptre down. These are both more clear...progress is obviously a very bad thing in his mind, it leads to a yawning and dark abyss. And, in both he speaks of this "Iron Crown," which Morgoth also wears and it looks like represents progress. But then again, are his views, essays, and fictional writings really that coherent?
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien |
06-16-2010, 03:05 AM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
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Kipling, in Puck of Pook's Hill, parts of which I vaguely remember reading years ago, writes of the aversion of Faerie to iron:
Quote:
For another take, see Kipling's poem "Cold Iron" where iron, representing the power of force and conquest, is transformed into the power of Redemption; the iron being from the nails of the Crucifixion (which, as Curry notes, was supposed to be the source of band on the Iron Crown of Lombardy). http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_coldiron.htm
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-16-2010, 03:23 AM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-20-2010, 02:34 AM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Think of it this way. Science, in his day and age, was becoming more and more secular. Up until the past few centuries, the majority of European scientists had a Christian worldview, and the people believed that if their discoveries did not coincide with their Christian beliefs, they were heretical. For example, when Galileo's heliocentrism was declared "false and contrary to Scripture" by the Catholic church, he was put under house arrest. However, now, and when Tolkien was alive, science does not and did not have to go along with the teachings of the Church; in fact it now contradicts them. All that to say, if progress is the result of scientific discoveries, then yes, it is an attack against Christianity. As for faerie, it is a bit simpler. The more we discover through science, the more we can explain. The more we can explain, the less ambiguity there is in the world. The less ambiguity there is, the more absurd absurd things become. It's just as "impossible" for God to have made something out of nothing as it is for there to be a place called Middle Earth. Both Christianity and Faerie are absurdities, and they are both attacked by science/progress; but that's where faith comes in.
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien Last edited by EllethValatari : 06-20-2010 at 03:54 PM. |
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06-20-2010, 04:30 PM | #10 |
the Shrike
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But if you were to perceive science as an attack against christianity, then you would be fundamentally misunderstanding what science is, and what it is used for. It is simply a tool, used to develop theories; it is not intended to be used as an attack on the sky father.
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06-20-2010, 06:22 PM | #11 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Quote:
Quote:
Did Tolkien see progress specifically as an attack on Christianity, or simply on an older mythical view of the world, in which Christianity could be included? I don't recall any statements that it was against Christianity as such, but it's been a v. long time since I've read the Letters or anything along those lines.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 06-20-2010 at 06:24 PM. |
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06-24-2010, 11:38 PM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
As for it being used to develop theories, that is a nice thought. But I don't believe there are many scientists out there who would describe their discoveries as theories. When I went to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, and walked along the wall upon which progressed the evolution of mankind, nowhere did it say that this evolution is only a theory. The government chooses to force-feed the theory of evolution into the people's mouths, and it contradicts the teachings of the Bible; it contradicts Christianity. Despite that fact, in claiming to have proven something like evolution, or even the non-existence of a certain animal, scientists are attacking Christianity; they are attacking God. Universal affirmative and negatives are very tricky statements, and most are known only to Him.
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien Last edited by EllethValatari : 06-24-2010 at 11:44 PM. |
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06-24-2010, 11:43 PM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien |
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06-24-2010, 11:47 PM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
What do you mean by "different spheres of reality?" What I believe religiously is what I believe scientifically and theoretically-do you separate those things?
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien |
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06-25-2010, 02:18 AM | #15 |
the Shrike
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ONLY a theory? Do you know what the scientific definition of theory is?
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06-25-2010, 02:33 AM | #16 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
No.1 is the scientific version, and includes not only the Theories of Evolution and Relativity but also the Atomic Theory of matter, the Germ Theory of disease, the Molecular Theory of chemistry, the Plate Tectonic Theory of geology, Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation, the Genetic Theory of biological inheritance and so on. Having a theory is what makes a science a science; a scientist who makes a discovery tests it against the theory. If the new discovery is well-founded ( testable and repeatable by other scientists) it's either incorporated into the theory or sits there as a challenge to it, which must sooner or later be explained. Sometimes the challenges to the existing theory become so overwhelming that the theory is overturned-the heliocentric system replaces the geocentric; the oxygen theory of combustion replaces phlogiston; the theory of evolution replaces special creation. Note that all these challenges are brought by scientists operating within the scientific community- they don't come from people running for local school boards and demanding their pet beliefs be taught.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-25-2010, 02:52 AM | #17 | ||
Elf Lord
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That depends on what truth-claims Christianity makes about the natural world. To a Biblical literalist, the claims of science contradict the claims of Scripture and must be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Catholic Church's position is that it's impossible for science to be incompatible with faith, because God created the Universe based on reason and natural law. This is evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould's Non-Overlapping Magesteria (NOMA): Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-25-2010, 04:26 AM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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Which I actually don't agree with...it seems to me that the central point of Christianity is based on a miracle, and therefore conflicts with science. What would Jesus's DNA reveal? OK, that's only semi-serious, but still the essence of Christian belief is, is it not, a supernatural intrusion into the natural world?
And therefore makes a claim about the world that could be subject to verification? ........ From Eliath's quoting of the Myhopoeia, this looks to be a reference to evolution: 'I will not walk with your progressive apes, erect and sapient.' At that time Java Man [I]Homo erectus[/Iwas still known as Pithicanthropus erectus](discovered 1891)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
06-25-2010, 06:23 AM | #19 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I don't usually do this but...
GreyMouser, you're a fountain of wisdom (and knowledge)! I haven't chipped in on this thread yet but I've been reading it and learned a lot. Thanx all. *Waves his hand* *BBC-accent*, Now continue please!
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06-25-2010, 10:24 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Thanx. It's amazing what Wiki can do for your reputation
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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