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05-01-2008, 03:05 AM | #61 | |
Deus Ex Machina
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- Come to Middle Earth in the Middle of the Second Age, c. 1600, and, - Go east and disappear. Given that, the 'renegade wizard' could still be in the running, though the 'from numenor' bit would take some creative speculation.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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05-01-2008, 03:13 AM | #62 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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05-01-2008, 06:55 AM | #63 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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The only 'blue wizards' I ever heard of were the two who came with the other Istari around 1000 in the Third Age. The Nazgul had already been around for most of an Age by then. Over 2000 years anyway.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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05-01-2008, 10:46 AM | #64 | |
Elf Lord
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The fact that in both official sources ("Annals" and “The Line of Elros”) were specified various dates of death I consider as an obvious indicator that the “digging” in all this mistery should be launched exactly from this point . Here is a part of the table, made by me, with dates of birth, life and reign of the kings of Numenor. In black - the dates which were taken from «The Line of Elros» and «The Chronology of the Westlands”(Appendices B). In blue - my calculations . In red - an inconsistent or suspicious dates. According to one of my friends, the picture gives an impression of being swept with a machine gun and the blast went basically over the two particular kings. Why this two, when other parts of the chronologies have been left as is, untouched? As I already have mentioned, Tolkien was working on the chronology of Numenorean’s kings for a quite long time, but instead of smoothing out all roughnesses in the dates of events , he has began to do the deliberate corrections, by a definition of his son, the "mistakes". Why Tolkien has embarked on the corrections of the dates of these two kings? I think, that Tolkien has been planning in the indirect way to point out on the real person of the one, who later became the King-Nazgul, but by whatever reasons he has decided to leave only hints, offering to the reader to come to the necessary conclusion by himself .
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Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. Last edited by Olmer : 05-01-2008 at 10:48 AM. |
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05-01-2008, 01:11 PM | #65 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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05-01-2008, 01:48 PM | #66 | |
Deus Ex Machina
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Didn't it say somewhere that the forms taken by the Istari were rather more solid than normally used by the Maiar? If that was the case then one of them might react by fading as a mortal would when corrupted by a ring.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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05-01-2008, 05:20 PM | #67 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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05-02-2008, 04:06 AM | #68 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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But seriously, it just doesn’t fit because of the time of composition of different elements of this theory. In 1940-ies Tolkien had wizards as Wise Men of Numenor, with the WK as a renegade wizard (Wizard-King). In early 50-ies Wizards became Maiar, sent to ME in TA 1000, while the WK remained a Man from SA Numenor*. In late 60-ies or early 70-ies Tolkien played with the idea of sending two of the Maiar earlier, telling BTW what has happened to them. That is all. *Note this quote from Nomenclature written for the Second Edition of LOTR, but never inserted: Reader’s Companion p.20. Quote:
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BTW what do you mean by "the Witch-King's first incarnation???" I don't think he planned for his readers to solve the riddle themselves - not his way, here I agree with Earniel. But he must have had some vague idea about a king-nazgul, that he might develop later, if he felt so inclined, without having to alter the published Tale of Years. Tolkien had to decide whether to leave himself an opening or no, when he was sending the Second Edition to print. He respected his own published works - as if they were unalterable historical documents. Publishing something as straightforward as the Line of Elros left no room for further stories. Note, that he never inserted all the dates he had already written in the Line of Elros (UT) and in the drafts of the Appendices (HOME 12) into the published Tale of Years. He wanted it incomplete and somewhat contradictory,as a real historical source was likely to be. Last edited by Gordis : 05-02-2008 at 04:10 AM. |
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05-02-2008, 05:46 AM | #69 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Perhaps 'first identity' is a better description.
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07-22-2008, 03:26 AM | #70 | |
Salt Miner
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The dates of the births, ascensions to the throne, and deaths are pretty reasonable, I think. (Take a look at the graphs: it appears to me as if Tolkien charted or sketched them out for himself.) There is no evidence, in my opinion, of any assassinations of kings, royal princes, or undead kings. Anducal, husband of Tar-Vanimeldë, usurped throne from their son Tar-Alcarin for 20 years, but that took place 1000 years after the birth of Tar-Atanamir. (There is some weak evidence that Ar-Pharazôn eliminated Elendil’s uncle, Elentir; but I believe that Elentir appears in only two of three tellings of the tale, and even that is at the end of the history of Númenor, not midway through, as we are discussing here.) Remember that the Númenóreans embalmed their dead, much as did the real-world Egyptians. The embalmers and courtiers and extended family would all have noticed any problems in this process, reported them, and midway through the history of Númenor, long before most of the population had fallen away from “true faith” in Eru and his design for Men, fought against either a usurper or an undead ruler. The simpler argument is that the Witch-king was not a king of Númenor, but a close relative who had immediate and, for quite some time, unhindered access to the royal family. Last edited by Alcuin : 07-22-2008 at 03:30 AM. |
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