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#41 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind the Walls of Night
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Many of these quotes have been posted, but this is all the quotes I have found that shows Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.
TTT - The Black Gate is Closed 'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum LotR - Apendix B 2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again. The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years. The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.' The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #200 After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long time to rebuild, longer than he had done after the fall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of rebuilding after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book. Letters - #246 In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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#42 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
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Quote:
I think what Frodo sees in the mirror IS Sauron’s eye. “The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat’s” I think the fire is part of the mirror’s montage of images and it is surrounding the rim of the basin (Galdadriel’s circular mirror) like a border while Frodo sees the eye, but it is not part of the eye itself. That is why the next phrase “but was itself” seems to draw a distinction between the “border” of fire and the vision of the eye. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-16-2004 at 05:16 PM. |
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#43 | ||
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#44 | |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 76
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#45 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
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"Now where did I leave that palantir? Ah, there it is, right beside my keys."
- potentially said by Ulmo
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#46 |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: all over the place
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Sauron "poured his evil into the Ring," according to Tolkien. I never did know how literally that should be taken, but I'd think that it garantees an undying connection between Sauron and his One Ring. And since his spirit still existed after his death, he was still alive in the Ring as well. This connection was obvious because, well, destroy the Ring and destroy Sauron.
So to me it would seem that a finger is unnecassary. A little old and off topic maybe, but there definately was an actual eye of Sauron, because Tolkien himself drew this picture of it for an early LotR box set: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/...yeofsauron.gif (There's nother thread for this right? I haven't been here in a long time. ![]()
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 01-18-2004 at 05:23 PM. |
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#47 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 76
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Sauron used the eye as his symbol too, if you'll recall - that's what Tolkien was drawing, I think
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#48 |
Lady of Westernesse
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!)
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I think that the Eye is Sauron's way of symbolizing himself, like Saruman uses the White Hand. I also think that when he has to make a guest appearance, like when Frodo saw him in the Mirror for instance, the Eye disguises himself. But he shows his normal body when talking through a Palantir.
Hey, I got this weird thought while reading all this talk of Sauron's finger and all. Isn't it strange how both Sauron and Frodo lost their finger while wearing the Ring after it was taken from them for good by a corrupted (or corrupted-to-be) being, that died after taking the Ring (either sooner or later)?
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Yada, yada, yada |
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#49 |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Thank you for all the interesting things you've written!
![]() ![]() durin's bane, that's an interesting thought! I'm sure there has to be some connection; Tolkien has many hidden things in his book. Though it's a bit out of topic, please discuss and enjoy! ![]()
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#50 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind the Walls of Night
Posts: 286
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Just found another quote.
The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure. This comes from after the Fall of Numenor, but before the Last Alliance. We know Sauron had physical form at that time because Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. But it also talks about the Eye of Sauron at the same time as him being in physical form. So the Eye of Sauron was there before the Last Alliance while Sauron was in physical form. Add this with the quotes I gave above where Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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#51 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Second Age: 3319 - Ar-Pharazon assails Valinor. Downfall of Numenor. Elendil and sons escape. 3320 - Foundations of the Realms in Exile: Arnor & Gondor. The Stones are divided. Sauron returns to Mordor. So he is back in Mordor the following year. It is stated somewhere as well, that it took him about 100 years or so to take form again, which is just in time for the Last Alliance...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#52 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind the Walls of Night
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Yes it took Sauron 100 years to reform after the Downfall of Numenor, but the quote above talks about the Eye of Sauron after talking about Sauron taking a new form and taking up the Ring again. It says nothing about the Eye of Sauron when Sauron is still building his new form.
But after he looses the Ring it takes him many long years to take a physical form. When Gandalf tells Elrond about Sauron taking shape again in Dol Guldur it is about 2,000 years after he lost the Ring.
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) Last edited by Melko Belcha : 01-23-2004 at 02:13 PM. |
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#53 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
Also, just for the record, the Ithil-stone was captured by Sauron when he took Minas Ithil, (later known as Minas Morgul), and the Anor-stone was that in the custody of the Stewards.
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#54 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Oh...never mind...looks like everything in my post was already stated...and I even managed to get the ship wrong...
![]() But, on to the palantir in the river: It is noteworthy, I think, that the Ring was in the same River (albeit at a "slow" section), and was, obviously, smaller and less weighty, but was not washed away.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#55 | |
The Fleet-Footed
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#56 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
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I don't think it's strange or unusual - it's really somewhat expected and natural that those who manage to keep the Ring in their grasp long enough suffer this same fate.
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#57 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: mentally or physically?
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Here's what i've always thought:
-Sauron had a man-ish phisical form. -He had the ability of farseeing, which means he could, to an extent, see things that were happening in other places. -When he looked directly at you (farseeing or otherwise) you could feel his gaze. -If you tried to look back (farseeing) at him you would see his (for lack of a better term) inner self which was manifested as a flameing eye. -It was not pleasent. -Definatly not pleasent. ![]()
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#58 |
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![]() I remember reading somewhere in RotK that the Eye was some sort of window.
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