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12-11-2003, 04:13 PM | #1 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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France wants to prevent students from wearing religious garb...
France wants to prevent students from wearing muslim head scarfs or covering themselves and now they have just suggested that all religious garbs should NOT be permitted in the schools at all. This I feel is infringement on personal freedoms. Here in the United States we have jews and muslims sitting next to each other in classes, they wear their clothing. jews are aloud to wear yarmulkas and muslims can wear head scarves or be covered. There is no restriction on wearing religious jewelry either.
On French news a couple of weeks ago they had about a jewish school where the students are being terrorized. They have to be walked to the corner of the street with a teacher, but then they are basically on their own hoping nothing will happen to them. They have resorted to wearing baseball caps to hide their yarmulkas. A couple of days ago the news interviewed students who just beat up jewish kids waiting for the train and stuff - they said it was funt o just beat up jewish students because they are weak. Two weeks ago, a jewish school was burnt to the ground. Now France argues that they have a seperation of church and state in their public schools and therefore do not allow students to show any outward appearance of their religion. This to me is infringing on the individual rights of the student and creates a misunderstanding between the different religions. I think it is ridiculous for anyone to have to hide their religion just because they have entered school. I think it is great that here you can see a muslim wearing a headscarf and next to her, a jewish boy wearing a yarmulka. We don't teach religion in school, unlike in France - so why do they have a have a far greater prejudice problem than we do here? And how is it in the rest of Europe, form looking at the news it seems as if Germany has a huge problem - as well as other European countries. continued...
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12-11-2003, 04:18 PM | #2 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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continued...
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12-11-2003, 04:46 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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while i'm strongly for the separation of church and state i also believe that everyone has a right to express their beliefs as long as they do not infringe upon others
for example, i think it is wrong to require prayer in school, but i have no problem making it optional... i put nationalism (i.e. the pledge of allegiance) on the same level, since i have always seen nationalism as a form of state theology let the kids wear what they want... there is no point in raising kids in a sterile environment that does not reflect the reality they will become a part of when they become adults |
12-11-2003, 04:49 PM | #4 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Regards, Dave
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12-11-2003, 04:56 PM | #5 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
The whole thing started by the way - not becuase people were getting beat up - it started because two girls were wearing headscarves in school and the government said it promotes the muslim religion and therefore they were suspended,
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-11-2003 at 04:57 PM. |
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12-11-2003, 05:00 PM | #6 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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The French are very anti-christians, jews, or anything else religious.
this issue on not bieng able to wear a yamulka or whatever else is getting a little silly. i think someone should be able to wear a cross on his neck to school. or a yamulka, or whatever else. edit: I decided that remark was a little too rude..., but i see its too late....
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12-11-2003, 05:12 PM | #7 |
Lady of Letters
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I have no problem with people wearing religious symbols. I agree with jerseydevil that it can promote religious understanding. However, I think that France has some issues with this that go deeper than we may realise.
Thanks hectorberlioz
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12-11-2003, 05:13 PM | #8 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Quote:
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-11-2003, 05:14 PM | #9 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I'm afraid that a ban will lead to segregation, which is too sad. I'd say it is better to display the differences in the open and talk about them, maybe make people curious and wanting to learn more about other religions, than to make everyone look alike. The differences will be there anyway, they will just be more hidden and subject to myths and prejudices, and that is a pity because I think it will lead to more intolerance.
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12-11-2003, 05:16 PM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Edit: we did get some help from a few Spaniards and Italians, but the direction was all ours.
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12-11-2003, 05:18 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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I think it's outrageous. The Franch should let students go to school with any jewlery they want (except a little group, that include the sign of nacism).
The problem with me is, that I don't know how it is in Israel - Israel is a religious country, jewish country. I don't know of any muslims or christians in my school, so I don't really know how it is to have a person with different... customs in my class. I can tell though that many of my class wouldn't except this person. |
12-11-2003, 05:19 PM | #12 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
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12-11-2003, 05:50 PM | #13 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I foudn my previous post with the french article from last month...
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Here is the translation from Google. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-11-2003 at 05:54 PM. |
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12-12-2003, 01:19 AM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
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“Je déteste” came from the grandmother of the two girls. The woman is Jewish, I would suppose, and to be honest, given the present state of unrest from the Middle East to Europe to around the world, I can understand (not condone, mind you) this woman’s emotion. On the other hand, the school’s reasons were not provided in the above quote, and I seriously doubt that the grandmother was speaking for the school. I imagine that the school’s reason has something to do with the upcoming legislation.
By the way, it would be easier to learn French than try to unscramble the instant translator. Quote:
I think I should clarify that I’m not on either side. I understand, though, the emotionally charged environment in which this debate is taking place. I definitely don’t see anything wrong with the public display of one’s religious beliefs, within reason. If people can’t play together nicely, then bad things happen for everyone. Perhaps the French are missing the mark... but just imagine the furry if the French were to force Muslims to accept a no-tolerance position regarding Islamic fundamentalism and anti-Semitism. Such measures would be immediately interpreted as racism directed toward a minority. The issue is too complex just to boil it down to a free speech thing.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-12-2003, 01:31 AM | #15 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-12-2003, 04:19 AM | #16 |
Alasailon
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I believe this goes WAY far BEYOND the separation of church and state. The basic idea is that religion should not interfere or influence government in any way. I can understand students not having class prayer in public schools and I can even understand the debate about having everyone to affirm a deity every time they recite our Pledge of Allegiance but not being able to wear traditional religious clothing or ornaments is stupid.
So what happens when they ban that from schools because they are owned by the government? Is that any different than saying "Because this country has a government, you are not allowed to wear any items that relate to religion while under the jurisdiction of this government." At a certain point it just gets absurd and wrong. Sorry if I got carried away, but it just struck a nerve in me right now I guess.
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12-12-2003, 05:22 AM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
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Yes, I can't help feeling this is terribly counter-productive.
From my experience, racism in France is an even more serious problem than it is elsewhere; you just need to look at the results of the recent presidential election for confirmation of that. On the face of it, in principle this recommendation (which is all it is at the moment) treats everyone the same, but in practice, of course, it will have the greatest impact on Jewish and Muslim minorities. So it wears a secular, left-ish mask but implements a right-wing agenda. The result will be to reduce mutual understanding and increase, and even justify, racism. If the EU has any balls, they'll be hauled into the European Court of Human Rights. Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 12-12-2003 at 05:24 AM. |
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12-12-2003, 10:43 AM | #18 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Saying they need to promote mutual understanding is easy. It takes a little more than saying: "We all need to get along." It's just not that easy. Personally I think mutual understanding of culture and religion is a terrific idea. But it's -like so many things- easier said than done. It takes time, it takes generations. It takes more than a life-time. It takes goodwill. And truck-loads of effort. Prejudices are darn hard to get rid of, even when you know yourself you have some.
The French banning of any obvious religious signs is a solution to inter-religious clashes. I'm not saying it is a good solution but at least they're recognizing and trying to resolve the problem. It's a little drastic to try and remove the problem by removing any object that might give offence. And a bit of the easy way out of things as well IMO. It may deteriorate the situation further. In a way I find it is sad that they try to 'solve' the situation by restricting the religious rights of those students to the wearing of discreet items. On the other hand, it might just work. School isn't for life after all (except perhaps for teachers, who may probably be hit the worst by this new rule.) and the students can resume their veils and other signs of religion at home and afterwards again. And maybe, just maybe the students will learn that under the veil, yarmulka or other religious items, their fellow students are rather alike. Without any outward sign of religion, the students may mingle more, and thus contribute some understanding. I just hope that whoever wrote that study which they used as basis for this new rule bloody well knew what he was doing! This is not a thing you suggest so casually. Quote:
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12-12-2003, 12:15 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Fair enough; it was a bit of a generalisation. What do you think about racism in France then?
I disagree regarding the removal of these items. For a start, it discriminates against people (like Jews, Sikhs and Muslims) who have a garb. Although many Christians wear crucifixes, these are not "official", and therefore it hardly impacts them at all. It seems like the ruling would insist that people deny some profound aspect of their identity during their childhood, which in turns seems not only unrealistic but downright provocative (towards the communities concerned). The second thing I disagree about is that what happens in school doesn't matter for later life. If your schooling teaches you that religious garb has no place in public life, then any antipathy you might have towards a particular religious group is likely to be reinforced rather than counteracted. To my mind, it is giving in to the prejudice (let's deal with it by pretending everyone's the same instead of dealing with it by encouraging people to be accepting of each other and celebrating our diversity). IMO, this would result in people seeing other religions as more "other", not less. Far better would be to interact with all kinds of people in a normal setting so that the fact of equality is better internalised. I compare this with my own experiences of a segregated educational system, which perpetuates sectarianism between Catholics and Protestants. Obviously, this is not outright segregation, but it is tantamount to the same thing: it is are segregating religious life from school life. Interested to hear your thoughts. |
12-12-2003, 12:47 PM | #20 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Them banning them because of prejudism is just a secondary reason. They are using that now as an excuse. The french news before NEVER stated this as a reson before. It was more like "we want a reason for people to accept our decision in this, now what can we use? Aha - let's say that we are doing it to promote understanding and prevent racism, people will go for it then." Quote:
Like I said, here people generally get along. This summer a group of Asidic Jews were at Great Adventure, the boys in their tight curled hair and black hats, girls in dresses. There were no problems, but I don't think those extreme jews get that kind of respect in France. There they have problem with jews who just wear yarmulkas. Quote:
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As I said - it was not part of the racism before, it was strickly their view on seperation of church and state, they only just now threw in the racism part.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-12-2003 at 12:51 PM. |
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