The Anti-theist Thread

[Wayfarer]

Actually that goes quite contrary to my experience AND observation. Ethical behavior is not innate to the human species.
Altruism might be a heritable trait, but ethical and moral behavior are developed from childhood. If it were not so, then children would need no discipline, they could turn themselves into "model citizens".

Isn't it? Because the very fact that we have a 'model' of citizenship suggests that we know something more than we put into practice. If humans were merely the product of our universe, then we shouldn't know that we're doing worse than we ought. Those that are born blind don't have any concept of sight.

Humans very rarely behave in the manner which we feel we should. But the fact that we feel that way, that we know otherwise, suggests that we're more than a result of our environments.

That's a teleological explination. You are saying that because X happens it must be meant for X to happen by grand design. It neither proves nor disproves any purpose.

However, there is still difficulty with interpreting the current observations to mean that humans are "hardwired" to do so. The alternate explination is that it is a distortion in the normal perception of self identity. Which is quite a different matter.

The human brain structures that account of 'supernatural experiences' could be a distortion of something else. But I doubt it. Our brains our not arbitrary, and our neural patterns behave a certain way for a reason. We gain pleasure from sensory experiences-food, drink, sex, and whatnot. And also from more abstract things-love, respect, security, and so forth. But in all cases these desires are there for a reason, and there are actual things which can satisfy them.

And so when we find that our brains work in such a way that we can be induced to feel 'the supernatural', is it not more likely that there is something behind it? There are a number of examples we could cite of people taking something legitimate the wrong way and ruining it, but I think we'd be hard pressed to say that there are things which humans desire which don't exist. Even athiests have a tendency to endorse the greater good, and things like that. And so it seems perfectly reasonable to me to presume that there's something behind it after all.

Of anything you've said so far, this is the only thing that is internally consistant. But to make it rational, you are going to have to confess to the subjective bias about what you "know".

One of the many problems in dealing with our language. Or perhaps in just being human. Of course we can admit that we don't know anything for sure. But that's not something that's going to hold throught the conversation. Because of course we have a tendancy to think that we do know. And it's not practical to try and qualify everything we say.

You may mean "your personal brand" of christindom, but you haven't specified that.

Well there's christianity, and there's christianity. Or something. ]: ) Something I've found is that the title is applied more liberally than it really fits. The church of christ scientist, for example, or the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, are greatly different from anything that you can get from the bible.

My personal viewpoint is that there's a bunch of stuff that's been tossed in over the years, from the priesthood to dancing is bad (I know a girl who'se parents believe that) to whatever. Heck, most of my problems are things come from trying to be some sort of psuedo-intellectual. But I try to base everything I can on the new testament, which as lelondul pointed out happens to be the best preserved document on record. And I'm often surprised to find there are a number of others who do the same. I hope you can understand my thinking that the most important thing is the basics, and that everything should be looked at critically.

In any case, I really do hope that the only things peculiar to 'my brand of cristendom' are the habit of metaphor and my love for tolkien. In short, things that don't make much of a difference.

Incidentally, I have good friends who've come out of a number of different religious and social backgrounds, and we very rarely dissent or compete in what we believe. It seems to me that's because we're trying to find out the right way to do things and follow it. I certainly agree with you guys on a number of flaws in the modern church(es). But, having accepted the basics of christianity as likely true, I try and get as good a picture of reality as I can. I'll let you know if I make any stellar progress.