The Anti-theist Thread

[Wayfarer]

I used to be a theist. But the behavior I saw people engaging in, trashing other people for their beliefs, hating other people for their ideas, and generally feeling smug and superior turned me off. I thought to myself, this can’t be rational, and it’s certainly not honest.

So I became an atheist. And then I was doubly shocked. Because I saw the exact same behavior, and if anything, (I noticed it) to a greater degree. Trashing other people for their beliefs, hating other people for their beliefs, and generally feeling smug and superior. And I thought to myself, well this certainly isn’t rational either. And it’s no more honest than I can see.

Don't you just hate that, Xandre? I mean honestly, it drives me absolutely insane. Or did it drive me sane? I can't remember. One of the two. I'm actually not sure whether i'm sane or insane right now. Perhaps I'm actually completely mad, but giving the appearance of sanity. Or something.

besides eating hobbits etc whadda do as a livin'?

I seem to recall something about a dwarf catapault and a plump dunlending maidens.

But hey. that's just subjective. ]: )

Anywho...

Now that you've established the fact that everything is subjective and it's impossible to be sure that we really know anything-fine. I'll buy that. Humans are subjective, etc, etc.

However, you (we) obviously accept some ideas as better than others.

{It does not} follow that because nothing is certain any belief is as good as any other belief.

Right? And after all, you yourself have stated that you find agnosticism is more rational than either theism or athiesm. Because it's impossible to say that we know anything.

Now, this comes down to what I've been getting at all along. I'm not interested in proving that God exists. After all, how does one prove anything? What I have (and still am) trying to point out is that the concept of God is more rational than the concept of a naturalistic, self existant universe. Incidentally, once either one of these concepts has been proven or discredited, agnosticism becomes illogical. It is foolish to waver between two choices when one is obviously better or worse than the other.

I'm done enough reiteration on the causal arguement. Arguments can also be made from order, life, thought, energy, and a number of other simple things. I'll grant that there are a number of conflicts regarding the nature of the ultimate diety, but can anyone rationally believe that there isn't one?

I'll use a metaphor. Feel free to skip this next two paragraphs if you don't like them.

Blackheart brought up the ideas that we might not exist, and you are actually imagining all of this. And yes, it could be true. But can anyone reasonably go around thinking that you're the only person in existance, and that you are simply imagining the universe? Hardly.

Likewise, there might not be a God, and the universe might be a product of some ripple in omnispace. But there are a number of factors that disagree. And so it's not that reasonable to believe it.

We can qualify this. Most humans practice day-to-day naturalism. We assume that, for the most part, what happens around us is not the result of divine intervention. That's logical, right? And it works for everybody, regardless of beliefs. But that's really not grounds for saying that divine intevention doesn't occur, or that there is no diety who could intervene.

(metaphor)
We also assume on a daily basis that, for example, al quaeda is not behind a recent car crash, or house fire, or the fact that your refrigeration isn't working. But we don't go from there to thinking that al quaeda could never do anything like that, or that al quaeda doesn't exist. Indeed, if someone did that we would most likely laugh at them. It's possible, of course. One could say equally so-but it's not as reasonable.
(/metaphor)

So let me repeat myself: we accept that we'll never know everything for certain. But we also accept that some ideas are more reasonable than others. And I, formerly an athiestic nihilist, could not and cannot get over the fact that any way you slice it, the metaphysic of a creator God makes far more sense than that of a self existant universe. And so, as much as I sometimes wish otherwise, I'm stuck with that.