Abortion II

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by katya

Don't underestimate maternal instincts. I think a lot of pregnant women, by choice or not, feel a tremendous amount of attachment to the unborn child.

I agree. And often, showing a woman the ultrasound of her baby is enough to convince her not to abort. But having a child physically visible without any machinery or belly between you brings the experience to an entirely different level for many people. It makes it so much more personal.

Originally Posted by katya

I certainly wouldn't have cared if I'd have died before I had any attachment to anything in the world

That, you certainly don't know. I watched ultrasound footage of an 11-week old child struggling to get away from the instrument being inserted into the womb to kill it, and saw its mouth open into a panicked scream. The fact that its world is different from yours doesn't mean it has no feelings about it.

Originally Posted by katya

and no one's really gonna miss the kid either

Who cares????? Does all self-worth depend on what other people think of you? Should the Constitution be interpreted to guarantee, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," only to popular people?

Originally Posted by katya

As for how things turn out for the mother, well, that's her deal.

Often teenage moms are ignorant of the health risks abortions pose.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

[Aristotle]Silly Lief, potential and material are the same thing![/Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Curufin

He does get psychiatric care. It doesn't always work, you know.

I am very, very sorry about his condition. I'll pray for him . . . I just think it's extremely wrong to assume that the lives of unborn children will turn out like his and use that as a justification for killing them.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The biggest difference between gestation and post gestation is that someone has to gestate. It's just not right to require someone to do that, if she doesn't want to. It's like requiring you to 'donate' a kidney. You have a perfectly swell one, you're hardly using it, and it would save someone's life. The government will be by to pick it up Wednesday. Don't worry, though. Your corneas look pretty good, so NEXT year we'll come and get those. Well, one, at least, we wouldn't want to inconvenience you. But skin...skin grafts are really in demand, we might get that, on a later trip.

There are a couple big differences. One is that it's you killing the person in abortion, not standing by and letting someone die when you could save him at great personal cost.

A woman committing abortion (especially in cases of rape, where it's not the woman's fault that she's pregnant at all) is like a woman who is put in jail for a crime she didn't commit, and shoots an innocent guard in order to escape, rather than serving the time.

The other reason why your analogies fall short is summed up in two words: Parental responsibility. Whereas individual families don't each have a responsibility to give up every dime they have for starving people in Africa, everyone has a responsibility to look after their own children. That's parenthood. You do it through hard times and good. You don't kill the kids in hard times.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The ONLY reason everyone doesn't see this for the monstrous invasion of government into the life of an individual that it is is because people blame women for being pregnant. It's all through this thread, already. "If a woman chooses to have sex, she should know she might have a baby." There might be some lip-service to rape exceptions, or 'life of the mother' but basically the message is, 'She asked for it, let her suffer."

You're purposefully ignoring the repeated statements of pro-life folk that they care about the children. We also care about the mothers. Your statement is entirely untrue of my own feelings, and, I expect, is untrue of the views of all pro-life people here.

It's true that the woman, by willingly having sex with the knowledge that a child could result, bears some responsibility. That's called parenthood. Some people here have expressed the belief that parental responsibility begins at conception rather than at birth. This does not mean they want women to suffer or care nothing for their suffering. It just means that they don't see that suffering as a valid justification for murder.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

It's not "a related note." It's outside the scope of this discussion,

What is this, the third time in two days you've tried to get the mods after me? Or has it been three days?

as any triage issue would be. Pray you'll never have sick relatives, or be sick, yourself.

It's not outside the scope. Pro-lifers see abortion as a form of infanticide, and pro-lifers argue that legal abortion will likely lead to legal infanticide (as it has done in the Netherlands). They are tied together.

As for my relatives, I have no idea what they have to do with the discussion .