Theology III

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

First of all, I will say that because I believe the Bible to be inerrant, if its condemnation of witchcraft was all the evidence needed, it would be sufficient for me. There is very good reason, in my view, to believe the Bible to be inerrant, but discussing this foundational issue would lead to a whole different (and very broad) debate.

Leviticus Chapter 17
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
Has your sandwich been to the tabernacle?
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Where is the fat burning in your sanctuary?
7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.
10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.
16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity.

What did you have for dinner?

19.19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

What is the fiber content of your shirt?

19.27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Do you cut your hair or own a razor?

20.25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Cast the first stone. I dare you. Jesus knew that it wasn't the 'government' enforcing these things.

"Sin" is condemned in God's eyes. "Crime" is condemned in human eyes. My position that witchcraft constitutes a crime is based first on the Bible. The Old and New Testaments present witchcraft clearly as a real, powerful, and terrible phenomenon, and the Old Testament (the New doesn't spend much time on the role of the government) condemns it in law. Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, so the early Christian nations, after Christianity had gained a position in the political realm, made witchcraft illegal. They made it a crime because the Bible does.

I have a lot less faith than you do in the early church fathers. That isn't God's errancy, it's man's.

I have heard people talk about their firsthand experiences at the receiving end of witchcraft, and it's pretty dark.

I've heard people talk about a lot of things. People lie. Also, people suffer from mental illness. Sometimes both.

No, it is not "she turned me into a newt" . I also have had some drastically negative experiences with powerful demons (as opposed to mental peeves) in my own past, which convince me thoroughly that the spiritual realm is powerful and can be very dangerous. Witchcraft has never been used on me,

How do you know? Perhaps half the board has a Lief doll they stick pins in on a regular basis. The girl you sat next to on the bus set a hex on you this morning. You can't possibly prove this assertion.

but I have talked with people that do dabble in witchcraft or who have experienced it.

Review. People lie and are unwell.

I also once had an experience of seeing a person in a college class for the first time, someone I had never known or seen before, and the instant I saw him and heard his voice, I had an extremely powerful sense of darkness and personal revulsion toward him.

Yeah. Some people you don't like. It happens.

I have also heard stories of believers in foreign lands, particularly Africa, who have had spells used against them, and when they had forgotten to pray for safety, these spells created bizarre kinds of incidents. For instance, one family's mother and father prayed every night for protection against magic (they had heard threats that spells would be used against them). One night, they forgot to pray for defense, and that night their tent burned down in a fluke accident. They barely escaped with their lives.

I have many African friends who have not "died of witchcraft." I even know people who have lost tents. Can't you hear how unproven this argument is?

Evidence outside of the Bible convinces me that the common human consensus since the origin of our species, that witchcraft has real power, and the conservative Christian consensus, that witchcraft is dangerous, is correct.

The consensus of the early church fathers was that spontaneous generation was a big issue, too. Why isn't that worrying you?

Your argument makes as much sense as it does to allow a drug dealer to have full access to your children.

No. My argument makes as much sense as allowing someone who has imaginary drugs to take them, if he pleases. My children are not threatened by his delusion. They may be threatened by yours.

You don't see me bombing abortion clinics, do you?

Oh, is that why? I don't know what you're bombing.

We live in a democracy.

No thanks to you, and your kind.