Chapter VIII and IX: The Scouring of the Shire and The Grey Havens

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Nice chapter summery to lead us out into the world of the......... Appendices!

Hee.

Originally Posted by jammi567

2) I think the most poiniant(sp) scenes is the bits where the hobbits kill Wormtail, because he really was just an innocent life gone wrong, and the re-organising of the Shire, because it shows and reenforces teamwork, and the rewards that can benifit from that. What i don't get is: why did the hobbits kill Wormtail in the first place, when he's just killed the one person who got them into that situation in the first place?

You bring up a very good point which has never occured to me in all my previous readings ; why in Middle-earth did the hobbits shoot Wormtongue? He did murder Lotho, but the situation plays out as if they aren't really getting revenge for Lotho by shooting Wormtongue.

Wormtongue, just like Lotho, was duped by Saruman. He wasn't quite a stupid as Lotho, but Saruman slowly made Grima dependent on him until he became so loathesome he became known as Wormtongue. At this point, I think he felt his only choice was to serve Saruman, though I feel this was not the case at all. Saruman effectively trapped Wormtongue's mind.

Anyway, why did the hobbits kill him? My theory is that they were so angry about the occupation, and keyed up after the battle, that they wanted to kill someone. Wormtongue did kill Saruman for them, but I think the four hobbits who shot him probably did so out of instinct since Wormtongue was trying to escape.

I'm sure there were more bowmen (bowhobbits?) in the army, but only those four had the reaction to shoot wormtongue.

Frodo especially, and most of the hobbits there, kept a much cooler and would not have killed them.

Oddly, after Saruman tried to stab Frodo he was thrown down, but after Wormtongue killed Saruman, he was shot. Maybe it's because Sam was the first to go after Saruman, and the other hobbits were following his lead? This would not have been the case for the shooting of Wormtongue.

Another possibility is that the four hobbits were so shocked by seeing Saruman murdered like that, that this led to their reaction of shooting Wormtongue. Saruman never directly murder anyone (though through his occupation, he was arguably responsible for every death in the occupation), but Wormtongue had murdered Lotho and Saruman. In some ways, he was more dangerous than Saruman, who never really had the guts to do his own murdering.

Originally Posted by jammi567

3) I wouldn't mind it being what happened to the other characters after the story finished. Like the 'Eplague' that was written, but cut out.

There was an epilogue? What epilogue? And why isn't it in the Appendicies?

Originally Posted by jammi567

4) Because i guess he had the most battle experiance of all four of them.

Oh yeah! I forgot he killed a Nazgul and stuff. Heh. (Not that Pippin was slacking off, killing that mountain troll and all, but I think Merry was also more confident because of this.)

Originally Posted by jammi567

1) I think he would've got to Rivendale, and be made to either say there to keep bilbo company, or be sent back to the shire, where he could remain 'safe'.

That makes the most sense. I think he would have been much better off in this scenario! That's way better than languishing in the Lockholes.

I like Fredegar, I wish we had gotten to see more of him.

Originally Posted by jammi567

2) I don't think so. To me, it seems as if everyone there is equal with each other. But the example you give sounds like the Baggin's: They became famous and well known throught the shire, instead of hobbition, or the farthing they're in.

Every hobbit is equal, but some are more equal than others. The Bagginses are referred to as gentlehobbits, and Sam is always Frodo's servant, even after their adventures. (Though he is equal to Frodo in my mind, but then again, I think about all of them that way.)

A class system and servants, etc. is something I probably will never comprehend.

Originally Posted by jammi567

5) With Gandalf there, the hobbits, in general, wouldn't have realized that sometimes, they need to sort their own business out, and thus, realize that they can do more then have six meals a day.

Ahaha, absolutely! I think the three of us are in agreement on this point.

I do wonder how a final showdown between Gandalf and Saruman would have gone, though. I think that neither Saruman nor Wormtongue would have died.

Originally Posted by jammi567

9) I'll post on this later. Sorry.

Don't apologise! You don't have to answer all the questions, just the ones you want to. And feel free to pose your own discussion points too.