How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Tolkien used the word "compared to"; plus the nazgul aren't savage people, at least not in the direct sense of the word. Moreover, the fictitious event you are reffering to is much further in time, when Frodo is far greater - as I pointed to Olmer previously.

One can be a cultured man but a savage warrior. I don't think anyone would think "savage" here was meant literally. The Quotes ARE conflicting all the same.
As for "further in time, it is so, but the nazgul saw this particular hobbit for the first time in their lives. They couldn't know how strong he could prove to be. They didn't expect resistance at all, when they advanced, then the hobbit puts on the Ring - still an object of terror to the Nazgul, now or several months further (what is the difference?) , draws the anti-nazgul blade the likes of which has not been seen for 1500 years and that the Barrow-wights guarded. Sure the nazgul were dismayed swiftly coming from under-estimation of Frodo to over-estimation of him.

Originally Posted by Landroval

And, even if true, this is relevant to your theory - how? Not to mention that Goldberry was expecting the hobbits and received news about them .

Very relevant. IF the nazgul knew a Barrow was plundered and the Wight sent away, they didn't think of the weak hobbits and peaceful Bombadil, but of the meddling Maia Gandalf who they knew was around looking for the hobbits. They thought it was Gandalf who had the blades, and they scared Gandalf away before he met the hobbits. Then when they saw the BD blade in Frodo's hand, they understood it was not Gandalf, but the hobbits with the Ring.
And how on earth is Goldberry relevant here?

Gordis: And Aragorn said "pierce" not "wound". I see no contradiction to my idea.
Landroval: I see; so if one gets stabbed, that doesn't qualify as a wound?

I cut my hand with a six inch-long kitchen knife. Pierced the skin, drew some blood. Had I got all the length of it in my body, I would have been dead. But it only pierced the skin, then stopped. - Could it be called a "wound"? I think, yes. - Is it as bad a wound that can be inflicted by the same knife if it went all the way in? Not really.

The shattering of the blades at the first "piercing" of the skin, assures a certain immunity, does it not? The nazgul get a superficial wound, then the blade perishes.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am afraid that since no one seems to complain about it, you raised a false dillema. Not to mention that it would still come handy if your enemy's sword perishes - after all, not all first wounds are lethal.

Then you suppose that the spell assuring certain immunity to the nazgul (they can't be killed by arrows, said Gandalf) is a different spell from the one that shatters the blades used on them? I say, that was the SAME spell You stipulate the presence of two spells instead of one.. Don't forget Occam's razor, Landroval.

Gordis: Initially Gandalf would use the Ring to do good.
Landroval: Not for long, if you ask me; and Frodo's independence would last even less, seeing that we are comparing a maia with a secondborn; but I will conceed we are merely speculating.

It is irrelevant for how long here. To the nazgul's knowledge, even if Frodo DID use the Ring against the Wight, he didn't use it too many times to be unable to pronounce the name of Elbereth.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I see; so neither the mouth knew about how just deadly that sword is, plus he is foolish, even though his name/action/ranks qualify him as their highest 'diplomat' around, so to speak . So much ignorance on all sides...

I explained the reason for their ignorance in my previous post and explain it again below. If you want to argue, please, refer to the reasons I gave, not sneer at the conclusion.
As for the Mouth being "foolish", it was not a smart thing to allow Gandalf to take the sword from him unhindered. The only explanation for this utter foolishness was that he didn't know what an unique thing it was.

Originally Posted by Landroval

It depends on where the wound occured, strenght, shock, etc..

Not an answer . It could be said of any blade.

Gordis: But only the runes on the blade gave away the nature of the spell laid on them
Landroval: Hm, can you quote a text concerning the runes on the blades?

No, I can't. And that is great you noticed it, Landroval! There were NO RUNES visible on the Barrow blades:

For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.

Now, for enspelling things, runes of Power were normally used:

Eärendil was a mariner...
.
In panoply of ancient kings,
in chainéd rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him

Here you see that RUNES were used for a spell to ward all wounds and harm.

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor.

Here we again see runes used in the same way, either for the bane of Mordor, or just for protection, or for both.

The Dwarves also used runes of Power

With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.

The Rohirrim also used spell-runes:

Then Éowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn, small but cunningly wrought all of fair silver with a baldric of green; and wrights had engraven upon it swift horsemen riding in a line that wound about it from the tip to the mouth; and there were set runes of great virtue.

Even think of the Ring. Only those who could READ the RUNES on it knew what exactly was the Rings magic. Gandalf couldn't tell WHICH ring it was BEFORE he read the spell - inscription on it "One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them."

So before one deciphers the runes and understands the nature of the spell, there is no way one could know WHAT spell it was. It could have been anything... But when there were NO RUNES to read on the Barrow-blades, or maybe only invisible runes, that one can see only in the Spirit World, how could the spell be understood? Workmanship was Arnorian, that was ALL that an EXPERT such as Aragorn or Denethor or the Mouth could see!

Can you prove that Aragorn know about them later?
You're joking, right?

Not at all. Can you prove that Aragorn knew WHAT spell was on the blades before the Witch-King was stabbed?
I can prove that he mistakenly thought it to be a general "anti-Mordor" spell.

I am not arguing these were anti-nazgul, only that the orcs feared them - apparently, more than the nazguls do.

Wrong. The Witch-King wouldn't have left such swords lying around unguarded for all to find. Orcs did. Who feared the blades more?

Gordis: Note that the Mouth of Sauron and probably Sauron himself were equally mistaken, it seems.
Landroval: Yea, can you believe it??
I find that hypothesis to be absurd.

Thank-you -very-much. So kind of you.

I say I am sure that Mouth was unable to recognize the blades unless Sauron or a nazgul told him.
As for Sauron, I said "probably". He had too much on his mind to peer at all the blades captured by his orcs.

Gordis: Even (the ressurected Elves's) position in space was at will", the super-powerful magical dudes
Landroval: Would you be so kind as to provide that quote?

Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Compare it with the LORT quote:

Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power

Originally Posted by Landroval

Oh, your sweetheart? (Gosh, I remember how good it was teasing girls.)

So you have NO arguments.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Gordis, though I left your other (good) points, unaddressed, they are irrelevant as long as the main issue I raised previously is left standing: the nazguls underestimated Frodo at Wheathertop, not the other way around.

Well, I happily announce that now I have found proof for my hypothesis.

I was looking for proof since I posted my theory and I found it finally in a book that I don't have and that I didn't ever read: "Hammond and Scull, LOTR Readers Companion"

About a month ago, in another thread Roccondil, one of the best Tolkien scholars I know, has pointed to me the existence of this rather recently published book containing TOLKIEN'S OWN, previously unpublished NOTES. I have tracked Roccondil on other forums and I have found the proof for my (and Alcuin's - because Alcuin was the first to consider the Wight's problem) theory in this thread on theonering.net:

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtop...er=asc&start=0

Tolkien has considered the Weathertop situation and made such comments:

Tolkien wrote:

… the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.

Oct 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew the other four back to him. He then patrols the road to the Bridge of Mitheithel, knowing that it was practically impossible to cross the Greyflood between Tharbad and the Bridge. The Nazgûl search in vain for the Bearer while Aragorn leads Frodo in the pathless lands south of the Road.

Hammond and Scull, Readers Companion notes to p. 208

The nazgul DID recognize the blades, DID associate them with the destruction of the Wight and WERE afraid of Frodo. Now it is irrefutable.

On the Minas Tirith forum my "opponent" has deleted the whole thread once he saw this post. All my posts and Alcuin's are now gone. Some cowards just hate to be proven wrong. Here I hope it will only provide us with more things to discuss.