Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age?

[CAB]

Landroval, we will just have to disagree on this one. You haven’t convinced me and it is clear that Gordis and I aren’t convincing you. I have this last little bit to say.

First, a lot of people will disagree with your definition of evil, me included. You might consider looking at the Evil in Middle Earth thread here at Entmoot. It is a very interesting thread, though a bit long. I actually didn’t call the Valar’s mistakes evil (at least thats not what I meant). I meant that their mistakes acted much like Melkor’s evil in that they served Eru’s plan in a way unforseen (yes, even by Manwe in my opinion). Technically though, many of the Valar’s mistakes could be considered evil.

Also, if Manwe truly had the full understanding that you attribute to him then it means that he intended for the kinslayings to happen, he intended for everyone on Numenor to be slaughtered, he intended for Men to follow Morgoth and Sauron for thousands of years, etc., etc. Doesn’t that seem out of character to you? I prefer to think that he made honest mistakes rather than believe that he planned to allow (and even cause) so much evil for the Children of Eru and the rest of the world.

The last thing I would like to say is this. I do think that Manwe and the other Valar had faith that, if they acted as they thought best, then they would be successfully serving Eru’s will in the end, despite the mistakes made along the way.