Discussion Thread Number 5 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I must say I agree with most if not all of Val's points - I just can't see that many ships and the destruction of a town staying under the radar ... is there a way we can still get a fight in for those that want it?

YET AGAIN! About the NUMBER OF THE SHIPS.

‘For my part I heeded them not,’ said Gimli; ‘for we came then at last upon battle in earnest. There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count.

That's how a great invading fleet looks like. Compare it to TWELVE SMALL ships, with about 50 men in each going upriver. What "invading army" are you speaking about?

Originally Posted by Valandil

"First of all, placing things in the historical setting:
1. We don't have any evidence that Umbar would have had any kind of naval forces at this time. Please don't confuse the current Umbar with that at the end of the Third Age - for there was an infusion of naval power into Umbar following Gondor's Kin-strife, when Castamir's descendants led their followers to Umbar after Eldacar returned to re-claim Gondor's crown (all this in the mid 1400's). Castamir's passion had been for fleets, so we can surmise that this resulted in most of Gondor's fleets - likely unassailable since the times of the Ship Kings - being transferred to Umbar at this time. However - that's still a long way off. Of course - they might have had some sea power, so we could make that supposition.

NOBODY is confusing Umbar at the beginning of the Third Age with Umbar of Castamir or that of the end of the Third Age.

The relevant things will be the following:

1.Umbar was one of the two greatest havens of Numenoreans since 2280 Second Age. It was the haven of King's men, while Pelargir was the haven of the Faithful.

a. UT: "before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron's dominions"

b. LOTR Appendices :"TA 933 King Eärnil I takes Umbar, which becomes a fortress of Gondor". That means BEFORE that it was NOT a fortress of Gondor.

c. Silm: " And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin."
In this stoty it was Fuinur who sent the small fleet to Tharbad following the ML bidding

2. At the moment of the Downfall both Pelargir and Umbar were bound to have BIG fleets stationed there- certainly lots of small coastal vessels, that never travelled to Numenor and were kept in ME havens. There were bound to be shipyards aplenty as well.

3. Umbar was a great NATURAL haven - see in Silm: "the mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought."
Look at it on the map as well: it is quite well sheltered from the Sea, much better than Pelargir. So the destruction caused by the Downfall must have affected Umbar much less than Pelargir.

4.Both Umbarians and Gondoreans most probably continued building ships - at least coastal ships: Isildur escaped from Osgiliath by ship; Umbarians had to build ships to assure communication with numerous smaller havens south along the coast.

5.The building of GREAT navies and big seagoing ships in Gondor happened much later:

LOTR: "With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship-kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Mouths of Anduin. To commemorate his victories as Captain of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'.
Eärnil I, his nephew, who succeeded him, repaired the ancient haven of Pelargir, and built a great navy. He laid siege by sea and land to Umbar, and took it, and it became a great harbour and fortress of the power of Gondor."

Originally Posted by Valandil

Even if Umbar did have some sea forces, the victory of the Alliance of Elves and Men over Sauron and his forces is within living memory. I don't think too many would be eager to take on Sauron's over-throwers at this point (and we don't know for sure which side Umbar fell on back then). I would think they would be VERY hesitant to launch any kind of risky attack like this.
I'm not sure how much influence the Nazgul would or could realistically wield at this point - especially from a distance. I'm not convinced they could persuade men to place themselves at risk like this.

There is evidence which side Umbar fell on back then - see above- and it is already a second time we are discussing it!
They wouldn't attack either Gondor or Arnor in force, and they didn't. Twelve small ships are no big deal. Sure, the captains take great risks, but they hope to be rewarded by big plunder. The expedition was proposed to them not by a nazgul, but by the Lord of Umbar, who remembers old alliances. After all, what is for him the loss of 12 small ships in case of defeat?

Originally Posted by Valandil

If there was a sea-power among the kingdoms of Men at this time, it was most likely Gondor, even though we're well before the first of the Ship Kings. For this fleet to sail toward Tharbad, they would have had to go right past Gondor. Another great risk - and I doubt Gondor would have allowed it.

there weere bound to be two active sea-powers - Gondor and Umbar. See my reasons above. And also: if Umbar had no fleet , what prevented Gondor to expand all along the coast to the South?

Sailing right past Gondor was not a small feat, of course, as even much later corsairs rarely went past Anfalas. But for small ships travelling by night, or further away from the coast and attacking nobody, it was feasible, I believe. But it was certainly unheard of before: that's why Arnor felt so secure.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I will put in place the mechanisms to allow me to discover when it will arrive.

Val, I bet the Valar also had some intelligence system and ways to know things, that mortals cannot have. But still they were taken by complete surprise by Morgoth and Ungoliant.
As well, can you give me ONE reason why the Eagles of Crissaeglir haven't warned the population of Gondolin of the approaching foes? If we reason as you do, there would NEVER be a single SURPRIZE attack!

Originally Posted by Valandil

I suggest we not have too many of these major military actions. If various Nazgul characters start calling in all their forces, and I have to respond by calling in more of Arnor's forces... that would just change the game so much. I think we've had a good time with the character-interaction. Do we want the game to shift away from that and toward the movements of armies?

No one is planning to shift towards the movement of armies. What I am still trying t persuade you to have is one night of fighting. Confusion. But Arnor forces rally and beat the corsairs. End.


We are not playing a war game. We are basically writing a common story. I don't see why two sides can't come to an agreement, instead of making warlike statements. And more: we are proposing new events to enliven the game. That is met by hostility - so what? Should we stagnate in our classes? What new ideas do you, FOGALS, propose?

I feel all I say is falling on DEAF EARS.