01-10-2006, 05:42 PM | #1 | ||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
What is death for Ainur?
I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.
Quote:
As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long. Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally. But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate: Quote:
What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years). The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again. The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring. Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar: 1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger. 2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what?? 3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as a. he was not immediately recognizable b. he had no traces of burns and bruises. c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain! 4. Saruman - most interesting case. Quote:
1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties? 2. Feanor. Quote:
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well. Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all? |
||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Uruk-hai, or the journey there... | Olmer | Writer's Workshop | 43 | 06-01-2016 08:55 PM |
On the death of Arwen | Earendil | Lord of the Rings Books | 52 | 02-09-2008 03:23 PM |
Death Star Physics | Beor | The Star Wars Saga | 11 | 06-16-2006 11:53 AM |
fav character death scenes | hectorberlioz | Entertainment Forum | 71 | 05-12-2004 06:26 PM |
Annuals of Beleriand | Melko Belcha | Middle Earth | 4 | 04-13-2003 10:22 AM |