Evil in Middle-Earth

[inked]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

And thus is the case of Saruman solved.

I misread the "wavering" part. My apologies.

Very nice explanation, inked.

Thanks, but this is my take on wavering. Attalus or others might think differently.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

It works very well regarding Saruman, I think, but I would still have some questions regarding Morgoth ( ). According to your argument, despite everything he did, Saruman would have still been given a second chance by the Valar.

In the VoE, however it is written, that Morgoth "sued for peace and pardon."

Was Morgoth, who was irredeemable, more evil than Saruman at the end, who was also irredeemable, that his request for mercy would not be heeded? Is this even possible?

Morgoth did initially as you recall, but then he returned to his self-will. He repented his repentance and the second falling was worse than the first. Morgoth indeed fell into the void. But both characters commit to self-will and enact it over time until it becomes their very way of being.

I think both Saruman and Morgoth when given their opportunities for final turning from self refused to do so wilfully or had become so self-fixated that they were incapable of choosing otherwise. They had confined their existence to self until implosion. They were irredeemable because they chose to be not redeemed when redemption was proffered.

Yes. It is possible in Middle Earth as Morgoth, Saruman, Wormtongue, and Gollum all demonstrate for us.

True repentance and amendment of life is shown in varying modes in Merry and Pippin and Bilbo and Frodo and Sam. We see the same in Boromir.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Does the downfall into evil have a floor, or is it bottomless?

Considering what we've discussed so far, my guess would be bottomless, since a "floor" would have to be pure evil, I think, a concept that we agree and Tolkien says doesn't exist.

The downfall into evil is not bottomless. The selves we discussed who elect evil until it becomes for them impossible to repent implode into nothingness. Rejecting the good, they become incapable of existence. Evil is found to be derivative ultimately by all who so choose.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

And what would be your take on the redeemablity of characters such as Maeglin and the Fëanorions?

I should have to re-read those sections to be specific enough, but I would hold that if they did initially right out of good motive and when offered the opportunity, repented of their self-will and error, they were not irredeemable.
All however had in their degree the choice of self or the Other. To refuse the Divine Will out of self-will ultimately leads to self-destruction.