Why you believe what you believe I

[Ñólendil]

Ñólendil, what would you say about people that convert to Christianity from other religions, and claim powerful conversion experiences?

I'd say good for them.

If atheism was as effective as Christianity in producing the needed results, then such powerful conversions shouldn't be needed, should they? Or was atheism simply not the proper path for those people that converted? Was their experience of atheism not proper for them, while it was for right those atheists that didn't convert?

I don't think any one religion is for everybody. I really do think that people should believe what seems right to and for them. I don't think people have powerful conversion experiences because their old faith (or lack of it) was inadequate as a belief or worldview. I think that people have powerful conversion experiences because they see the truth in a way they were not able to before. For some people, Christianity is the way. For others, it is Islam. And so on. Because I see all these religions as different views of the same thing, or different paths to the same place, I naturally believe that people are better suited to different paths, but that no one is wrong, or that no one is right ("right" as opposed to wrong).

In response to your first question quoted here, I would like to say that a great deal of people "convert" to Atheism after Christianity. Because Atheism is not a faith, there really aren't many (I have not heard any) reports of spiritual experiences when Christianity was dropped. The idea seems almost silly.There wouldn't be, would there? Atheism is simply the denial of the existence of God. It's not a religion about faith. But those atheists who deny the existence of God can still have miraculous experiences in their lives. They may not feel it as the presence of the Spirit in themselves, but they may indeed feel it as other things. I think some people who stop believing feel great relief in themselves, and freedom, and power. I do not speak here of any of the negative senses that may come with "power". The power to change the world, for the better. For others, Atheism is utterly depressing and hopeless ... perhaps as depressing as another person may find Christianity, or Hinduism, with their perceived oppressive natures.

I'm almost at a loss here to explain myself, and it's partly because, I think, that I haven't thought much about physical sensations of the Divine, and people who claim to have felt God. I think I have, as I said, felt the effects of what God has done for me, and it was an amazing experience. Really I don't have much right to speak for Atheists on the subject, or for Christians. I can only suppose, and this is what I have done.

So I would say, if an Atheist becomes a Christian, and that seems right for that person, then that is perhaps the right thing for that person. And vice-versa. It's different for everybody, to me. One should believe what is comfortable for that person. I don't mean "convenient". I mean, if it fits with what you believe, if you gain something good and worthwhile from it, and it makes sense to you, become a part of it.

My main problem is the equating of things that to me shouldn't be equated. Christian holiness and Atheist happiness don't produce even near the same results, or seek the same ends.

Perhaps part of the disagreement here is that you are thinking, I am guessing, very much in the present sense. Would you say that many Christians experience holiness, today? If so, then I can see why you wouldn't agree that Christian holiness and Atheist happiness are the same thing. If Christians experience holiness by accepting and living with Christ, how can Atheists experience the same thing by simply being "happy"?

You didn't say any of that, but I am using these quotes (which I came up with) to make a point, which may I feel may be needed here. I am speaking of the holiness that is realized in life, at some point, when you become what the easterns call "enlightened". I am speaking of retaining only the necessary ego to interact with other beings, to help them attain what you have attained. But I am also, especially, speaking of the holiness that you become one with when the ego dies. I am speaking of a Heaven which is experienced in a lower sense while you are still interacting with this world, and then in full when you move on. I am speaking of that kind of Reality. I am not speaking of the joy you have when you accept Jesus into your heart, the joy (or happiness) you have when you decide there is no God, or when something really nice happens to you. The only word I could think of, at the time, for this Reality, that would be acceptable to Atheists, was "happiness". And that is why, technically, I equated happiness with holiness.

The key in all of that, that you would probably still disagree with, is that this "happiness" that Atheists can understand, I believe can be experienced and attained by the said Atheists, without converting, or believing in God.

So, I think true happiness and holiness are the same, because I am using both words to describe the Absolute. I use both words because one can be agreed upon by theists, and the other by Atheists, and I believe both can experience the Absolute.