By land, air, and sea!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk every nonsense argument years in advance.

Then why not close down this Tolkien board, and all the others? After all, Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk all the theories that everyone on all these boards are discussing, so of what use is it to ask questions and debate? If we follow your logic here, none.

More to the point, while you might disagree with the idea or suggestion (and so do I), you have yet to prove or establish anything regarding its absurdity. This might be your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you are not stating it as your opinion, but rather as a categorical truth.

Anyway, your statement here has little to do with the argument. You claim that the citation Olmer quoted doesn't say that Elrond's messenger's initiated contact--true enough it doesn't. But it also does not say that the Eagles initiated contact which is your contention against Olmer's suggestion. Plainly the citation doesn't support your contention; but it does show that before the Fellowship left, there had been contact between Elrond's reps and the Eagles and IF the Eagles wanted to help or could be asked to help, that contact makes that scenario possible. There are other reasons why the Eagles wouldn't or couldn't be an option, but "lack of contact" or "lack of an ability to contact" (which seem to be your position) isn't it.

Finally, on this statement, I'll note that you ignored the context of the citation, so I'll take it that that argument stands, thanks.

If you want to take up the banner for having Elrond (during the Council) get on the Bat-phone to contact the Eagles, feel free to cite a passage where he initiates contact with the Eagles (which was my original request).

I've been very clear in my position throughout my posts in this thread. To reiterate, it is that the idea of using the Eagles is not an absurdity. It was not a real possibility within the confines of the story, but is not an absurdity to ask and explore. So no banner toting, derisive, fallacious logic needed; just good old fashioned reasoned argument with citations from the text.

In your post of Oct. 03, you didn't make a request, you made an assumption: that contact with the Eagles and asking their help could not be done AT THE COUNCIL, and so no other time could be used, and that the Eagles were outside Gandalf's mission (being only to Men and Elves in that post). Both of these assumptions are incorrect.

First, it isn't necessary to restrict the time to the Council itself. The only thing decided at the Council was that the only real hope lay in destruction of the Ring in the fires in which it was made and Frodo volunteering to carry it. The idea of a "Fellowship" and its construction was decided later, in fact AFTER the scouts had returned and AFTER contact with the Eagles had been made.

Second, the very quote from UT that you provided shows that Gandalf's mission was to unite ALL those who would stand against Sauron, so unless you want to argue that the Eagles didn't want to or that Sauron would not have sought to dominate them, then Gandalf's mission extends to them too. QED.

The passage cited above in no way indicates that Elrond's messengers initiated contact with the Eagles. And it certainly doesn't show how the Council of Elrond could have contacted the Eagles, much less asked them to carry the Ring to Mordor.

This is an unnecessary condition. Why would it be necessary for Elrond or his messengers to initiate contact? As long as contact is made, that is all that is necessary to make the request that the Eagles be involved. Whether they would have or not is a different question.

Second, you're supposing that Elrond had no way of making contact, and assuming that the Eagles initiated the contact with the messengers. YOu need to prove that contention or drop it from your argument. IF Elrond's messengers initiated that contact, and the text doesn't say one way or the other, then Elrond obviously had a way of making contact. AND if he didn't, certainly Galadriel did, for Gwahir tells us that she commanded him to find Gandalf and bring him to Lothlorien, unless of course you want to try and argue that the Eagles were in the habit of dropping by Lothlorien for a bit of tea now and then.

Finally, I will point out that the Fellowship was formed AFTER the Council, and AFTER contact with the Eagles, there was nothing preventing the Eagles' being asked to be involved either at that point, or when the Fellowship is in Lothlorien.


End Part I
FB