The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one.

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB