Insidious, Lief and RÃ*an debate all things great and small.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

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Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
What do you mean by 'usable data format'?


something recordable, repeatable and verifiable.

Spiritual experiences are still usable. They may not fit your "usable data format", but that doesn't make them invalid or useless as evidence. Eyewitnesses have vital impact in courtrooms. Rightly so, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

so you assume as a base that god or demons drive reality? And that everything else must correspond to this point of view?

There very well could be more things in the spiritual realm, which I'm unaware of. If someone denies my God or the reality of demons and angels though, I'd know they were incorrect. Wouldn't you know someone was incorrect if they denied that you had ever seen a dog?

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

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So my normal system I'd say would be first: Hear the account. Second (if it sounds convincing): Ask God about it.

you realize of course that that would not be sufficient enough verification from a scientific point of view. Its instead a way of approaching reality simply based on your religion. You become your own self contained universe in that way. And when something happens it is explained only through the lens and limits of your universe.

If something comes up however that is an evidence my worldview is inaccurate, I'll consider the matter very closely. I've already done so with evolution, (science explains everything; there is no need for God!) with the existence of pain, etc. If the evidence is good enough, it might turn me away from my faith.

However, I don't see that as likely in the slightest to ever happen. As I grow older, I've been constantly delighted with how strong the evidence supporting Christianity is.

It's only been three years since I came to know Christ personally. At the time when I came to know him, I only went to church because I had to and I hadn't picked up a Bible in probably years of my own will. My faith was at its all time weakest. I had so little faith I didn't dare set a meeting with God for fear he wouldn't show up, and my house of cards (my religion) would collapse. I was completely weak, pathetic and sinful. The only thing I did have was persistence, and that came from the Lord. The persistence was in seeking his way. I didn't even know of the scripture, "seek and you will find." I didn't know I was guaranteed success. The persistence came from God, because he called me. After he found me, the best part of my life started, and continues up to this day. It has been utterly amazing seeing God at work in so many ways. It has become personal. It's not all mystical experience, sensing things without seeing correspondence to reality. Very many of the times, the experience connects with the physical events around me in extremely real ways. Only about two times out of what is probably now at least 200 different experiences have I been led to disbelieve what appeared to be a genuine experience.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

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I'm not either asking you just to trust my own experience. I'm asking you to take it into account and weigh it in your mind, along with other Christian experiences, as you decide your own stance on this matter.

well is this not the same as asking me to trust your (and others) experience since I have none of my own of that type and if I do I see them in a scientific light and not a religious light?

You can see them in a scientific light. Look through your own lens until you see it doesn't work, just as I would. (Frowns) Hmm. There are a couple rather severe problems with this, though.

Firstly, many of my experiences are deeply personal. I wouldn't be comfortable with exposing some things to you. (Smiles) Actually, some would cause you to doubt my psychiatric health, if you refused to accept a religious interpretation to events. However, my point is some are very deeply personal.

The second problem is that I personally doubt any experience is ever going to convince you. You need to have your own experience. That should convince you. It would require a search of your own for God. I am positive that he would answer that, if you were serious about it. It's possible that even if you weren't serious about it, you'd be changed. God is really remarkable sometimes about reaching to people that weren't even looking for him, and then causing them to do so.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

a computer sits right in front of you. you buy them at the store. They can be opened and taken apart and each part can be explained. There is no direct analogy to god in this way. Or the soul. The soul is an immaterial object it sounds like from the way you describe it.

Granted.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

And therefore cannot be detected by “purely scientific, physical matter reaching methods�.

Granted.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But where you see a soul I see something else. And because we cant take APART a soul and study it then we cannot simply assume that it exists and we certainly cant simply assume that it apparently controls us more then our instincts and our brain.

Definitely agree. We don't assume anything. We believe, based upon evidence.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

You can say theres a magic invisible sphere orbiting the earth that keeps everything on earth from floating away and that it cant be detected by any scientific means but that I need to believe you because its as plain as day to you. My response would be well let me know if you get any real data. But until that point im gonna stick with the whole gravity thing.

Alas, I think your belief of what makes real data is deeply flawed. It looks to me like unless you can take something apart and scrutinize every part of it, you won't believe in it. This doesn't make sense though. We can't take apart and scrutinize every part of the stars, yet we believe they exist. For thousands of years, people believed in the stars solely because of the evidence of their own senses.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

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Prayer is a part of my everyday life. The microwave is a part of yours. Do you understand everything about the microwave? Definitely not. Do I understand everything about prayer? Definitely not.

yeah but we know how the microwave works. What if prayer is simply a psychological phenomenon. Would you stop using it?

If you can prove prayer is simply a psychological phenomenon, I would probably believe it. We're talking PROOF PROOF PROOF here, of course. In my experience, prayer works. It performs miracles. I've seen that done. So it would take a lot of evidence to convince me it's all psychology, just as it would take a lot of evidence to convince me microwaves don't work.

Also, we do know some of the details of how prayer works. The more deeply one studies the different concepts brought forth in the scripture, the better an understanding of them one gains. We may not see "spiritual particles" making up different spiritual substances. We can understand better and better God, his nature, his being, what he's like and made of, and more and more about prayer too. I guess this type of knowledge is different from what you mean, though. Rather like reading a manual, I can understand how the microwave works. That manual doesn't show how all the nuts and bolts connect, and the electricity flows, and all of that. That's the difference.