Elven Kings

[Ñólendil]

I think we do enjoy the exchange as much as you do Elvellon. I know I do.

I agree with your second paragraph (first one after the 'personality' title), but I have a niggle. According to one source, the Annals of Aman (published in Morgoth's Ring, the writing is by no means entirely congruent with later ideas, but it's a great source nonetheless), Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë were the only Elves willing to go to Valinor. If Finwë and Elwë were not -- as I think they were not -- descended from the Second and Third Elves Tata and Enel, them going as ambassadors of the Quendi must have meant that they were very adventurous friends, with a strong desire to see the wide world, and perhaps they were also very ambitious. They must have gone through a drastic change with their going to Valinor and returning, and leading their peoples on to see the Light. They definitely met with ennoblement. Ingwë on the other hand, because of his name, I believe to be descended from, either in the next generation or the one after that, from the first Elf: Imin.

It is also notable, in relation to your post Elvellon, that Morgoth greatly feared Thingol and Melian.

But why must we assume Thingol knew Finrod would give his life for Beren at all? Is it not possible that Thingol never fully realized the full meaning of the giving of Finrod's Ring to Barahir? As far as we know he had not heard of the cold words Finrod told his sister in Nargothrond.

With regard to the Avari, perhaps you are assuming too much. According to the tale of the Fall of Man that Tolkien wrote, Morgoth met the Hildor long before any Elves did. Doubtless they did learn from the Avari in the Far East, perhaps those faithful to Eru and those others, but there's no record I know of dealing with a betrayal. Oh, Book of Lost Tales? I haven't read much of it. Maybe. Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born.

Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with. Tolkien's last word on Orcs (which I now know can be found in Morgoth's Ring) was that they were corrupted Men, but this depends on the very new idea.

Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee.

These are the passages dealing with the early days of Thingol and the Exiled Noldor, from Of the Return of the Noldor:

Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.

Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor. King Thingol hearkened to the words of Angrod; and ere he went he said to him: 'Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you. In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word. Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need.'

So you see, the right of passage into Doriath being withheld from all but the kin of the King occurred initially, before Elu made any comment about 'guests'. But the initial feeling held on, so when he said 'guests' he was only really referring to his own kin. I imagine he used the word due to policy -- for political reasons. Angrod is bearing a message back to those that sent him, to the Princes of the Noldor, not only the children of Eärwen. It is well not to exclude and insult those whom you bid and wish, in some fashion, to acknowledge you as Lord of Beleriand. He probably did not intend to welcome the sons of Anairë or Nerdanel, but the wording leaves the option open to him.

On the other hand Angrod is said to be the messenger of Finrod here. Perhaps Thingol had Finrod's kin especially in mind, as he would in any case forbid anyone else to enter.

Maybe in time he would have, had he never learned of the Kinslaying. But that was inevitable, and Faenor's sons accomplished enough evil anyway for him to ban them from the land. Yet even Fingolfin's sons, although not bereft of Thingol's friendship, were not allowed within Doriath.

Good point. I agree. Anyway you and Inoldonil already have solved the problem of the origin of Thingol's distrust for Men.

Have we? You mean the troubled dreams? That probably didn't help, but I think it's more than that. Thingol was definitely a racist -- for long. He probably regarded the Second Born as lowly and unworthy, not to mention perhaps unlovely. Their weakness I imagine he despised. At the heart of all racism there is fear. I don't doubt that Thingol was afraid in some way. Not only because of his ominous visions, but I think perhaps simply because they were different. Deep down, Elu Thingol was afraid.

Here I disagree. It is said elsewhere that small groups oh dark elves entered Beleriand secretly (HOME),I think there is no time restriction about it (But perhaps they were Avari, I don´t recall).

Yes, you can read about it in the very late writing of Quendi and Eldar, in War of the Jewels. They entered in from the south. They were in origin Tatyarin Avari, and so akin to the Noldor. But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.